[EPISODE 27] Single The Doctor Who Killed: The Chilling True Story of Dr. Harrold Shipman and his Many Victims

[00:00:00] Kyle Risi: And so, as the layers were being peeled back, it was clear that for all the love and loyalty that Shipman seemed to garner from his patients, it was all just a lie, and that in fact, he didn't care for them at all. Instead, he was killing them. What a dick. 

[00:00:41] Kyle Risi: Welcome to the compendium, an assembly of malpractice, mystery, and medicine, where even your family doctor isn't immune to a thorough inspection. 

[00:00:51] Adam Cox: Ooh, I've got an idea what this could be about.

[00:00:52] Kyle Risi: Well, in today's episode of The Compendium, we are starting with a question. Imagine finding out that the person that you've entrusted with the lives and the well being of the very people that you love the most is actually abusing this trust for their own twisted purposes. It would fill you with rage, wouldn't it?

[00:01:12] Kyle Risi: Yeah, dread. 

[00:01:13] Kyle Risi: So that's what we're covering today But before we do that, you were listening to the compendium podcast and assembly of fascinating and intriguing things We are that infamous weekly variety podcast where I tell you and Adam all about a topic that I think you'll find both fascinating and intriguing 

[00:01:28] Kyle Risi: I'm your host Kyle Risi, 

[00:01:30] Adam Cox: and I'm your co host Adam Cox 

[00:01:32] Kyle Risi: How are you today?

[00:01:32] Adam Cox: I'm good, thank you. It's a hot day. 

[00:01:35] Kyle Risi: And we're stuck in this boiling hot studio. It's time for the beach after this. We say studio. Hey, this is a studio. I worked really hard to pull this together for us. True, so, uh, what have you got for me this week?

[00:01:46] Adam Cox: What have I got? Well, um, something I came across which I thought was pretty strange. Uh, a guy from Florida has tried to run across the Atlantic Ocean to London using a makeshift hamster wheel. 

[00:02:00] Kyle Risi: Is this like just a ball? One of those like z 

[00:02:03] Adam Cox: balls? Essentially. So what, I'll just quickly show you a picture.

[00:02:06] Adam Cox: We can perhaps post it in the show notes if you want. But um, yeah, this, this is what it looks like. 

[00:02:11] Kyle Risi: So it is it is like a z ball cum hamster wheel. Exactly. 

[00:02:16] Adam Cox: It's a ball. And then yeah, so it's a think of one of those kind of inflatable balls and then on the side of that, there's these like plastic, I guess it's got water in to keep it help it keep it afloat and turn it around on the water.

[00:02:27] Adam Cox: So yeah, he tried to run across the ocean. Uh, he got about 70 miles off of Georgia when the US Coast Guard caught up with him and basically said, just stop. Uh, but he wasn't willing to back down easily. 

[00:02:41] Kyle Risi: Can the Coast Guard even stop you from doing that? 

[00:02:42] Kyle Risi: I think so,

[00:02:43] Adam Cox: if they haven't got clearance to go for certain waters, then they're going to get caught. So he had with him, apparently he had some knives, uh, that were like as long as a 30 centimeter ruler. Uh, so he was armed and he was ready to fight the coast guard. That's not going to end well. Well, it looked like he had, um, wires connected to him and he threatened to blow himself up. So they had to I think it took several days before they could actually... Retrieve him. I think he eventually said, actually, no, it's not a real bomb. 

[00:03:12] Adam Cox: I lied. And they're like, fine. Now we're taking you in. Just because it's not real still bust his ass. This isn't the first time he's tried to do do a similar sort of thing. Apparently he got caught in 2014 2016 and 2021. 

[00:03:25] Kyle Risi: Has he actually made the journey?

[00:03:29] Kyle Risi: No, I don't think so. But here's, here's hoping. 

[00:03:32] Kyle Risi: Fingers crossed for the guy. Is it even possible though? What about if there's really stormy weather? Exactly. How does he breathe? How does he get oxygen in there? And how long does it take? Yeah, because you're running, right? That's three, four thousand miles. 

[00:03:42] Adam Cox: Yeah, and like a boat would take several days, weeks maybe? Mm. I'm thinking of like the Titanic. That was like several weeks that would... 

[00:03:49] Kyle Risi: Was it several weeks? I think it was like just a few days. Who knows?

[00:03:53] Kyle Risi: So, my interesting story for this week is all about the bagel. The bagel. Now, believe it or not, this tasty little circle of dough actually has its roots in medieval Polish antisemitism. Now, It sounds hard to believe, but it's true. Because back in those days, laws forbade Jewish people from baking bread.

[00:04:13] Kyle Risi: And the reason was because they had this irrational fear that Jews might be poisoning the bread, specifically the communion bread used by Christians in their Christian ceremonies. Oh, okay. So, they banned them from baking any bread or baking any goods. 

[00:04:29] Adam Cox: That's like someone's right to bake bread. 

[00:04:31] Kyle Risi: I would say so. It's it's the fundamental thing that defines humanity, right? We discover agriculture, then we discover bread. Yeah. And now they're not allowed to bake the bread. 

[00:04:39] Kyle Risi: That's terrible. But, to get around this obstacle, the Jewish community starts boiling their dough. Because technically it's not baking, and voila, the bagel is essentially born. That's how you make bagels, boiling bread. 

[00:04:51] Kyle Risi: Yeah, I think they're proved under water, then I think they, something gets done to them. Maybe now they get put into the oven real quick, but I think technically back then, it wasn't.

[00:05:00] Kyle Risi: So basically, boiling the dough was just a really clever way to sidestep the whole baking process. So essentially, the bagel came into existence as a creative solution to anti semitic laws and prejudices. Which I think is really cool. And a silver lining. 

[00:05:14] Adam Cox: And what do you mean? Well, that was obviously a horrible thing that they went through, but the silver lining is we now have bagels.

[00:05:21] Kyle Risi: But also, sticking with the topic of bagels, bagels are actually super hazardous to your health, because I think it's like number 4 or 5 on the list of knife related incidents are a result of cutting bagels. Really? Yeah, 2, 000 Americans end up in the emergency room every year due to bagel related injuries?

[00:05:44] Kyle Risi: And essentially, because of course, the way that you cut the bagel, you hold in your hand in that kind of clam shape way and you're cutting it and people end up like just cutting right through the palm of the hand because it's quite a tough dough as well. Right? So maybe you think, Oh, I need to put a little bit more force in there.

[00:05:59] Kyle Risi: And then the last little bit just slides through, bam, cut your palm. 

[00:06:03] Kyle Risi: One emergency medical technician said that she can instantly tell when an injury is bagel related. Like people come in saying, Oh, I've sliced my hand. And she's you were cutting a bagel, right? Just because of where it is, it's like right across your palm.

[00:06:13] Kyle Risi: So yeah, you got to watch out when you're, uh, you know, cutting 

[00:06:17] Adam Cox: bagels. 

[00:06:17] Adam Cox: This is why I always buy pre sliced bagels. 

[00:06:21] Kyle Risi: But a lot of people freeze the bagels and that's also probably why it's happening because they're harder. So it could also be that like it slips or something, I don't know.

[00:06:29] Kyle Risi: Because you have to hold a bagel. I mean you can sandwich on the chopping board, but then you run the risk of it not being cut straight. Yeah. 

[00:06:36] Kyle Risi: Again stick with bagels. Oh another fact about bagels. Just three. Just three, okay.

[00:06:40] Kyle Risi: What's the thing that's synonymous with a 

[00:06:42] Adam Cox: bagel? Well, cream cheese is pretty much a staple.

[00:06:45] Kyle Risi: Yes. Uh, probably the most famous in Britain at least, is made in which American city? Oh, Philadelphia. Yeah. I'm afraid it wasn't actually invented in Philadelphia. No? 

[00:06:56] Kyle Risi: It was invented in New York, but it was named Philadelphia because the Philadelphia area was really famous for making really good dairy products at the time.

[00:07:04] Kyle Risi: And the people who invented it in New York wanted it to be named after this area. So it was actually invented in New York as a way of making it seem like I was from Philadelphia. Oh, okay. Yeah. Marketing. 

[00:07:15] Adam Cox: Do you know what? If I had to choose the best bagel, it would probably be a cream cheese and smoked salmon bagel. 

[00:07:21] Kyle Risi: Ah, four facts. I have another fact for you. Four bagel facts. Okay. So, as well as cream cheese, salmon, of course, is synonymous with the bagel. Uh huh. And in America, they call it cream cheese and lox.

[00:07:32] Kyle Risi: But the really interesting thing about this is that the word lochs as a word hasn't changed in sound or meaning for 8, 000 years , and we think it's one of the oldest words to exist in the English language. So L O C H. No, L O X. Oh, L O X. Yeah. 

[00:07:48] Adam Cox: I don't think I've even heard of that word, L O X. For 8000 years, first time I'm hearing it. It's dying 

[00:07:53] Kyle Risi: out now. Everything's got to end sometime. And why can't it be now? But 

[00:07:57] Adam Cox: yeah, wow. 

[00:07:58] Kyle Risi: So that's all the latest things for this week. Should we get on with today's topic? Let's do it.

[00:08:03] Kyle Risi: So today we're talking about Dr. Harold Shipman. So he is a man on the surface who appeared to be this beloved and competent family doctor trusted by thousands, but it turned out that he was anything but because dr. Harold Shipman is a man who holds the shocking title of being one of the most prolific serial killers in history.

[00:08:24] Kyle Risi: What makes it even more unsettling is that he operated not in America, Where so many of the serial killers that we've touched upon on this podcast have originated, but instead right here in the UK. And even more chilling is that he operated between 1971 right up to 1998. What's that, 30 years?

[00:08:43] Kyle Risi: That's a 30 year killing spree, which earned him the title of Doctor Death. 

[00:08:48] Kyle Risi: What do you know about?

[00:08:49] Adam Cox: I remember when he got caught, although I can't remember when that was, saying that now, but I remember Well, I just said 

[00:08:56] Kyle Risi: 1998. Oh, did he actually get caught? That's the year where he got busted. Oh, okay.

[00:09:00] Kyle Risi: Yeah. 

[00:09:01] Adam Cox: Oh, well I thought sometimes they go into retirement and then people like Oh, I see what you're saying. But anyway. Um, he, yeah, I remember him being on the news and so I must've been a kid at the time and I remember being reported that he was like killing patients. I can't remember if it was in their sleep or how he did it, some kind of medicine they administered.

[00:09:18] Kyle Risi: That's what we're going to find out today. So today's story is all about Dr. Harold Shipman and what he did and how he managed to get away with it for all these years. Dr. Death. Yeah, I, again, I also remember it from when we were a child, there was some huge news, right?

[00:09:32] Kyle Risi: And what was really fascinating, and we'll touch upon this later on, that because of what he did, the NHS had to go through these huge structural changes, where they pretty much changed the entire infrastructure of how information was made accessible and passed through the NHS. And this was through one of the biggest technical projects in the world at the time.

[00:09:53] Kyle Risi: And I actually worked on that project. It was one of my first jobs that I worked for BT Sintegra, which was all around the spine projects where they were creating this infrastructure within the NHS. Because believe it or not, before 2004, if you went to, let's say.

[00:10:08] Kyle Risi: Liverpool and you broke your leg, but your doctor records were in Norwich. They couldn't get your records because there wasn't this network. And that's only a very new thing. And alongside all of that came all these restrictions about who can access what information about what patients, and they can then start gathering all this analytical data about who's providing prescriptions and stuff.

[00:10:30] Kyle Risi: So, interesting. I didn't realise I had a connection to the story. You made the world a safer place. I didn't because I got fired from that job. But, story for another time. Hold that thought.

[00:10:43] Kyle Risi: So, Dr Harold Shipman was born Harold Frederick Shipman. And he was born in 1946 in Nottingham in England. And his upbringing was fairly ordinary. His mother Vera from a young age instilled this very strong sense of self worth in her children, particularly with Harold. Now, we know him as Harold, but most people actually called him Fred.

[00:11:07] Kyle Risi: And growing up academically, Harold wasn't really a standout, but he was known for his rugby skills. Now, when Fred was around 16, his mother was diagnosed with terminal lung cancer. And sadly... This was at a time where there was just no real advanced treatment available. And so the best they could offer was treatment with morphine just to manage the pain.

[00:11:28] Kyle Risi: But during this period, Fred became deeply influenced by the doctors who were visiting his mother's house during her care. Which people say ultimately fueled his ambition to eventually become a doctor himself. So when Fred's mother fell ill... It was Fred who became her primary caregiver, but sadly Vera passed away in 1963 at the age of 43.

[00:11:50] Kyle Risi: That's really young. Now, of course, this was a significant emotional blow for Fred and it really impacted him emotionally. Now people began to notice changes in Fred's behavior in particular he was sniffing something called Sloan's like liniment?

[00:12:06] Kyle Risi: What's that? So it's something that is used primarily to relieve muscle pain or joint pain and the main ingredient in it is turpentine oil which Fred was inhaling for like a quick, a quick high. So it's like Turpentine? Yeah, 

[00:12:19] Adam Cox: yeah. As in what we clean paintbrushes with? Yeah, 

[00:12:21] Kyle Risi: it's that stuff there, but it's in an oil base.

[00:12:24] Kyle Risi: And yeah, it can give you a quick high. That's why, like they say, like when you're handling the turpentine, you should be in a well ventilated area. Sure, yeah. Now, fred's not that academic at school, and he starts falling behind. Initially, he fails to get the grades that he needs, but eventually he retakes his exams and then he ends up gaining admission to the Leeds University Medical School in 1965 and within his first year, he meets his future wife Primrose Oxby on a bus heading into Leeds. 

[00:12:49] Kyle Risi: Now Primrose, she's quiet, she's described as a bit of an introvert, but they strike up a conversation and they soon fall into a relationship. And Primrose's family, they like have their reservations about Fred, but there's not really a lot that they can do, especially after she falls pregnant.

[00:13:04] Kyle Risi: So Fred and Primrose, they get married and soon after they have their first child, who is Sarah Rosemary Shipman. Okay, so what were 

[00:13:11] Adam Cox: their reservations about him? 

[00:13:13] Kyle Risi: I don't know, I guess I just didn't like him. Maybe he was a bit, I don't know. He, he's very much an egomaniac. People describe him as really arrogant and I'm assuming if you have the personality type, you probably don't necessarily want to see your kids with him, but I'm, that's just conjectural.

[00:13:28] Kyle Risi: I don't know. 

[00:13:28] Adam Cox: Maybe not that warm of a person. But yeah, I don't know. 

[00:13:31] Kyle Risi: We're just guessing here. Okay.

[00:13:32] Kyle Risi: A few years later, Fred graduates with a degree in medicine and surgery, and along the years, their family grow with the addition of another child, who is Christopher Frederick Shipman.

[00:13:42] Kyle Risi: By 1974, Fred joins his first doctor surgery in Yorkshire, England, but he begins experiencing these blackouts, which doctors suspect is epilepsy. So Primrose has to obviously steadfastly support him, and she's driving him to all these doctor's appointments. And when he's working, she drives him to see all his patients at their houses and stuff like that.

[00:14:05] Kyle Risi: Now, Fred's dedication to his patients don't go unnoticed. He becomes super, super beloved by all of his patients. A year later, in 1975, it emerges that he didn't actually have epilepsy at all. And that he was actually addicted to a synthetic opioid called pethidine, which is commonly used as a pain relief during childbirth and because he was focusing on child health care It meant that he had real easy access to the drug. All right, okay 

[00:14:34] Kyle Risi: Also, this was a time before network databases as we talked about earlier on within the nhs So catching these discrepancies with this medication going missing was almost impossible so basically if it wasn't for doctors looking deeper into the suspected epilepsy and discovering that actually it's not epilepsy.

[00:14:51] Kyle Risi: He's just They may have never found out about it. So when his colleagues find out that he is addicted, they, of course they fire him. And in order to retain his medical license, he is instructed that he has to go into rehab. Okay. So it's his first year at a medical school and he's not really getting off to a very good start.

[00:15:11] Adam Cox: Really? Yeah, you always think like a doctor would be. Um, very responsible, very, um, you could, relied upon. He doesn't sound reliable, trustworthy, or anything at this point. I mean, he clearly wasn't even by the end point, but yeah, this is quite 

[00:15:28] Kyle Risi: strange. I mean, could you give him the benefit of the doubt? It's his first year, right?

[00:15:31] Kyle Risi: He's still quite young. And I guess that's reflected by what happens next, right? Okay. Yeah, they fire him. He doesn't lose his license. He is instructed to go into rehab, which he does. Of course, if he didn't, then he would lose his license, but they're giving him that benefit of the doubt.

[00:15:45] Kyle Risi: So, during rehab, an investigation is carried out into how he managed to get hold of the pethidine, it turns out that he had been padding out patients prescriptions, which is very illegal, right? So initially they gave him the benefit of the doubt. But they didn't know how he was getting hold of the drugs and because he was padding out these prescriptions That meant that he had to be arrested and he had to be prosecuted because he was forging documents and Prescriptions essentially how would 

[00:16:10] Adam Cox: you pad out a prescription?

[00:16:11] Adam Cox: You're writing it and say 100 milligrams or whatever of x But then he's adding an extra like 10 on top of that or writes a separate 

[00:16:19] Kyle Risi: one. No, you're exactly right and Of course these drugs they come into the practice. The patient doesn't go and get them because they're really controlled.

[00:16:27] Kyle Risi: You just don't get them over the counter. Yeah So then when they come into the practice, then he'll keep what he wants aside and then give them what they need So he's padded out the prescriptions keeping some stuff back. Sure 

[00:16:37] Adam Cox: So the one that he's ordering it from it's got the higher amount But the one that they see the one that he gives them is low a lower amount or they perhaps can't tell that there's a different 

[00:16:46] Kyle Risi: Yeah, I'm assuming that's how it works.

[00:16:48] Kyle Risi: That sounds logical to me. Because it would need to be that he's ordering it because it's a controlled substance. So therefore, it's not like he's giving them a prescription slip. Them going to the pharmacy and then collecting it. It's got to be done this way. So, the following year, in 1976, he ends up pleading guilty to obtaining controlled substances by deception and is convicted of unlawful possession of pethidine, dishonest acquisition of the drugs, and also forging a National Health Service prescription. So all this leads to various fines and a warning from the General Medical Council that basically says that if you ever do this again, you will be struck off and you will never be able to practice medicine ever again.

[00:17:25] Kyle Risi: They're like the authority body kind of thing that controls whether or not you can be a doctor or not. It's a last chance for him. That is it. So nearly two years out of practice, in 1977, Fred starts back as a doctor at the South West Durham Health Authority. Now, less than a month later, he moves and relocates his entire family just outside Manchester and starts working at the Donnybrook house, which is a new practice in Hyde.

[00:17:51] Kyle Risi: So that Hyde is like a little town just outside of Manchester. And it's here where he manages to get his career back on track. So much so that he becomes, again, a really beloved figure in the community right up until 1992. Over the years, he... Quite literally, accrues thousands of patients who are all extremely dedicated to him.

[00:18:13] Kyle Risi: But, his colleagues, find him really egotistical, saying that he would often look their nose down at him. He was really condescending, judgmental. So he doesn't really forge any close relationships with them. But he is well respected.

[00:18:27] Kyle Risi: So in 1992, Fred decides that he's going to open up his own practice, but not in a new town. Instead, he opens up a practice literally right next door to the 

[00:18:37] Adam Cox: Donnybrook house.

[00:18:38] Adam Cox: Right, so he's going competition almost. Yeah, but right next 

[00:18:41] Kyle Risi: door. That seems... It just seems mental. 

[00:18:43] Adam Cox: But egotistical, because I guess, well, for me, you have to have that confidence to go well, it doesn't matter. Because I've got such a good reputation with my customers, they're going to come this way anyway.

[00:18:52] Kyle Risi: That's right, and quite literally he takes all of his patients with him, and there are thousands of them. The interesting thing is that he wouldn't have been able to open up his own practice if it wasn't for the donations that he gets from his patients who collectively give him around about 20, 000 in donations. Why? 

[00:19:08] Adam Cox: Why would 

[00:19:08] Kyle Risi: they donate money to him?

[00:19:10] Kyle Risi: He's just that well revered in the community. I guess it's community, small community vibes and mentality, right? 

[00:19:17] Adam Cox: Okay. Almost like a tip. 

[00:19:18] Kyle Risi: And I think this shows just how much he was revered within the community, despite obviously his colleagues disliking him.

[00:19:24] Kyle Risi: So Fred and Primrose, they add more kids to their growing family and by the late 1980s, they have a total of four children. Around this time, he starts to focus his practice on geriatric care. A lot of these patients are elderly, they're at the end of their lives, or they're just chilling out in nursing homes. But one notable patient is a woman called Kathleen Grundy.

[00:19:44] Kyle Risi: Now, she's an 81 year old woman, she's super active, healthy, and she often volunteers within the community, checking in on, other elderly people that need it. So, she's super well known and she's well loved within the community.

[00:19:58] Kyle Risi: So, in spite of her excellent health, Shipman asked Kathleen if she would like to participate in a study into well being. And this would basically involve just a set of rudimentary blood tests from time to time. And Kathleen was like, sure, I'm healthy, I'm active, and if I can help improve other elderly people's lives, then sure, I'm all up for it.

[00:20:19] Kyle Risi: So she signs a consent form from Shipman. And he basically just says that he'll be in touch. So it sounds all above board, right? Yeah. Why would you not want to help with that?

[00:20:27] Kyle Risi: Shipman is not your typical GP because sometimes he would perform basic surgeries in house as well. Oh yeah. So on a number of occasions, if he was like in the middle of a surgical procedure and he needed a sign off on a drug or kind of he needed to do a particular procedure, He would ask another doctor to sign off on it. And he would hastily grab two of his colleagues out in the hallway. Sure. And without hesitation, they would often just sign it because apparently it was just a common thing in that kind of setting, right?

[00:20:54] Kyle Risi: You have to administer a drug, but oh, you have to quickly get it signed off but you're in the middle of a surgery, these things happen, grab you real quick, sign that off, it's just a release form for... this drug and they go, Oh yeah, sure. And they sign it. They don't even look at it.

[00:21:05] Kyle Risi: I 

[00:21:05] Adam Cox: guess if you've built up a level of trust, whether you like the person or not, but you trust that they're a good professional, you're just going to go, yeah, sure. I imagine they're not going to think anything. 

[00:21:14] Kyle Risi: No, they're not. And they're your colleagues as well. You're a doctor. You're respected. Do you know what I mean? So without question, you wouldn't even look into it.

[00:21:21] Kyle Risi: You wouldn't even think twice. Yeah. So Shipman is at Kathleen's house and he's there to draw some blood for the study. So after he leaves, later Kathleen's family come over and she's not answering the door. And when they gain access, they find that she's dead in the front room, sitting in her chair. What is strange is that the chair that she's sitting in isn't her usual chair.

[00:21:43] Kyle Risi: Okay. Instead, she's seated in a chair that faces away from the front of the house, when she always preferred to sit facing the front so she could see visitors coming through the front gate. So Kathleen's daughter is a woman called Angela Woodruff, and she also happens to be a lawyer. Throw a lawyer in there.

[00:21:59] Kyle Risi: Always the plot thickens, doesn't it? So when she's wrapping up her mother's estate, she discovers that a new will has been drawn up and that Kathleen had left the majority of her estate totaling around 386, 000 to a man called Dr. Frederick Shipman. Oh, so to Angela, this was very 10 years prior, Kathleen's mother had prepared a will for Kathleen on her behalf.

[00:22:24] Kyle Risi: Which as far as Angela knew, Kathleen was completely happy with this, right? So to see this new will was just a complete shock, and Angela also notices that the witness who signed off was completely unknown to her. Right, okay. So she sets out to locate the witness and it leads to a man called Paul Spencer, who turns out to be a colleague of Harold Shipman.

[00:22:45] Adam Cox: Okay, so he's signed something thinking it was a medical form. 

[00:22:49] Kyle Risi: Mm hmm. And when questioned, he says he didn't know that he was signing a will, he thought he was signing a medical release form that Shipman had asked him to sign. That's so dodgy. So dodgy. So Angela immediately jumps into action and she contacts the police, who then open up an investigation.

[00:23:04] Kyle Risi: And then on the 7th of September, 1998, Dr. Frederick Shipman is arrested and he is charged with the suspected murder of Kathleen Grundy. 

[00:23:12] Adam Cox: Right, so she's the first one that wears all kind of crumbles down and my thought with the chair thing, does that suggest that she was, had a visitor and so therefore she was sitting in a different chair?

[00:23:24] Kyle Risi: Potentially, I don't know, I don't know where the blood was taken from, maybe it was more accessible from that chair. Okay. Who knows, but the point is that's not her usual chair. No, don't be, don't apologize. But yeah, it's not her normal 

[00:23:35] Adam Cox: chair. So something just seemed odd, I guess, and then obviously they found out this.

[00:23:40] Adam Cox: And so what happens next then? 

[00:23:42] Kyle Risi: Well, basically what I'm thinking is that he saw this rich elderly lady who thought maybe he could get some, her to sign a kind of a new will, and then maybe he could get some money. For 

[00:23:51] Adam Cox: a surgery and well, disguising it to her as part for a surgery and do good in the community, I 

[00:23:57] Kyle Risi: imagine.

[00:23:57] Kyle Risi: Yeah. And this was what as the investigation progressed, the magnitude of his crimes started to come to light. They started looking into his patient records and speaking to his colleagues, and it turns out that people actually had raised concerns about him a number of times in the past.

[00:24:15] Kyle Risi: They also started to realise that a lot of people seemed to have died under his care, a lot more than what was considered normal. In fact, it was almost three times the rate of any other doctor in the UK. Okay. So what was more strange was that shipments seemed to be present at most of their deaths or had recently seen them.

[00:24:33] Kyle Risi: Like some doctors practice for 30 years and they've never been present when one of their patients has died. So a lot of red flags were popping up everywhere. 

[00:24:41] Adam Cox: I wonder what the, I mean, I imagine they would never release this, but I wonder what the norm would be. Well, 

[00:24:47] Kyle Risi: we know what the norm is.

[00:24:48] Kyle Risi: Well, I guess a 

[00:24:49] Adam Cox: third of what happens. A third of that. 

[00:24:50] Kyle Risi: Alright, fine. So, I mean, it's not impossible. If you are a doctor, you're going to be around people that die, especially if you focus on geriatric care, right? Right, yeah. But the rate at which his patients were dying was extremely worrying.

[00:25:04] Kyle Risi: There was of course, an early argument that he was just really attentive as a doctor, but these people's opinions began changing when more facts began to emerge. What was also strange in hindsight was that he was usually the one to sign their death certificates as well, and would often put down the death square of natural causes, which meant that he was able to then bypass. an autopsy altogether? 

[00:25:30] Adam Cox: So for natural causes there's no further investigation. 

[00:25:33] Kyle Risi: And because the deaths were considered natural and autopsy obviously was not necessary, it meant that he could also recommend the body for cremation.

[00:25:41] Kyle Risi: acting to obviously further conceal any malpractice. Right. Now what makes this even more disturbing is that during the 80s and 90s, doctors are actually encouraged to put as many patients forward for cremation if it warrants it, since it was more cost effective for the NHS and also for the families involved.

[00:25:58] Kyle Risi: But also for each patient that he puts forward for cremation, he would receive a fee between 20 and 30 pounds, which adds up over time. That's terrible. It's awful. Now doctors refer to this as cash for ash. Cash for ash. 

[00:26:13] Adam Cox: I can't imagine that that is, that was like a bonus scheme. When you're looking at life and death, I can't imagine they would do something like that. But 

[00:26:21] Kyle Risi: you've got to remember they're trying to work out ways that we can save money. And if they create these different incentives to get doctors to behave or act in a certain way, they can potentially help save money.

[00:26:31] Kyle Risi: And it makes complete sense to me, but it's just sickening that they coined it cash for ash 

[00:26:36] Kyle Risi: but 

[00:26:36] Adam Cox: then, because now being cremated is the norm, to be buried as it is, or, sorry, to be buried as a body is... a lot more unusual now. But I wonder if something like this has driven us to think because rather than giving us a free will or choice of what we want to happen to our bodies when we die, we're now all thinking cremator like, we'll be cremated because of this 

[00:26:59] Kyle Risi: bonus scheme.

[00:27:00] Kyle Risi: Yeah, who knows?

[00:27:01] Kyle Risi: But I think it's changed now. Now remember, Kathleen was fit and active before she died, so putting down that she had died from natural causes technically made the circumstances around her death suspicious in nature because she was so fit, right?

[00:27:13] Kyle Risi: So how could it be natural causes because they weren't expecting it to have happened? She wasn't ailing or anything like that, right? So Shipman was supposed to, in this instance, refer her to a coroner for investigation, but Shipman never did and he recommended Kathleen for cremation.

[00:27:27] Kyle Risi: So according to Kathleen's medical records, she wasn't fit and healthy. In fact, she had various ailments. So a key piece of evidence was discovered amongst his patient computer records.

[00:27:39] Kyle Risi: Mm hmm. Which during the 1990s was still relatively new because computers were only now coming into practices and things like that. Before everything was just paper based. But Shipman didn't quite grasp how these computers worked and so they found that he'd been retrospectively adding entries to patient records making it look like they were already sick in the lead up to their death.

[00:28:01] Kyle Risi: Right. But what Shipman didn't know was that every entry is timestamped. So they could literally see that he was falsifying records that just didn't exist. Okay. Because he wanted to make sure that if they do look into his records, they'll see, oh yeah, she came in and she complained of a stomach bug or something like that.

[00:28:16] Kyle Risi: But he was putting these in after the death. After the death. Yeah. Right. 

[00:28:20] Adam Cox: Retrospectively. Yeah. So he must, yeah, I guess quickly covering his tracks and then going, yeah, like five months ago she came in, six months ago she came in. That's it. Like that kind of reoccurring evidence. But I guess at this point in time, people didn't really, weren't savvy enough to know things that they're doing on a computer.

[00:28:37] Kyle Risi: Exactly. 

[00:28:38] Kyle Risi: And so, as the layers were being peeled back, it was clear that for all the love and loyalty that Shipman seemed to garner from his patients, it was all just a lie, and that in fact, he didn't care for them at all. Instead, he was killing them. What a dick. What a dick. 

[00:28:56] Kyle Risi: Investigators also found it odd that many of the people who had died under his care were fully dressed when they were discovered.

[00:29:02] Kyle Risi: Because, if you're ailing and heading towards the end of your life, people first start to deteriorate, right? They're often bedridden, or they're in a hospital bed, but yet these victims were living normal lives right up till their death. They were going shopping, they were going out seeing friends, they were active, and then gone.

[00:29:19] Kyle Risi: The astonishing thing is that this wasn't the first investigation into Shipman. When investigators looked into previous claims, they just weren't taken seriously at all. And this was partly due to this prevailing sense of camaraderie amongst doctors themselves. Because when any criticism is directed at a doctor, their colleagues usually come to their defence. Because when you criticise a doctor who is part of a practice, it's not just the individual doctor's reputation that's at stake, it's the entire practice.

[00:29:46] Kyle Risi: Sure. And therefore in turn, everyone else's reputation who works there as well. Yeah. So the quick succumbs to his defense and kind of dismiss these things. And I mean, over the years, I've heard stories about how difficult patients can be sometimes. And that potentially also results in doctors necessarily not taking patients too seriously all the time.

[00:30:05] Kyle Risi: Sure, yeah. So, I mean, yeah, but where do you find that balance? It's also like notorious, like when you go to see your doctors, go to your doctor's surgery and the receptionist is always the rudest. least compassionate person in the world. Yeah. But I guess it's because day in, day out, it must be exhausting having to just demonstrate compassion and patience all day, every day.

[00:30:27] Kyle Risi: So I guess in the end, she, yeah, it's just difficult to maintain that. I think 

[00:30:32] Adam Cox: perhaps I guess there's going to be people that are trying it on, so they might be slightly ill, but they're saying they're much more ill than they actually are, and so they have to judge.

[00:30:41] Kyle Risi: Where are you in this pain scale? Number 10! But you've just clipped your finger. Yeah. 

[00:30:46] Adam Cox: You're not, you're not bleeding out on the floor. You're fine. But, so I guess, yeah, they probably build a bit of an immunity in that way they have to deal with 

[00:30:55] Kyle Risi: things. Yeah, I agree with that. So given the mounting evidence and Kathleen Grundy's death, investigators start to interview the families of deceased patients and their aim is to get permission to exhume some of the bodies, which they find difficult, despite obviously their allegations, because many of the families don't really want to relive the emotional turmoil of having to put their family members back into the ground.

[00:31:17] Adam Cox: Yeah, and I guess also perhaps you're in a little bit of denial. Do you want to admit that maybe something untowards 

[00:31:24] Kyle Risi: happened? It's possible, yeah. But they do manage to get some people to agree, and it turns out that Shipman had been overdosing his victims with morphine. He had been prescribing them dangerously large quantities.

[00:31:35] Kyle Risi: And again, he was getting all of this by padding out patient prescriptions. And in one case, a guy called Jim King, he was diagnosed with prostate Shipman's care. Now, it's not clear if Shipman had diagnosed him, or if this was an incorrect diagnosis that Shipman just ran with. But because Jim required chemotherapy, Shipman prescribed him with morphine to help him deal with the pain.

[00:31:58] Kyle Risi: But the quantities were so high that he ended up becoming super addicted to it. Right. So, some of Jim's family start coming in to see Shipman, and they beg him to stop prescribing him morphine. Because he's convulsing, he's vomiting, and he's going through all these different withdrawals, but Shipman just refuses, and this goes on for months.

[00:32:19] Kyle Risi: So when the family look for a second opinion, this new doctor is like, well how much morphine is he taking? And the family tell him like some crazy high number, and the doctor's like, so is that a week, is that a month? And the family like, no, that's a day. Oh my word. Yeah. So soon after this, Shipman pays Jim a house visit.

[00:32:37] Kyle Risi: To give him more morphine and his wife Debra is like no more morphine, you need to give him antibiotics and in Debra's testimony she genuinely believes she saved her husband's life that day because that was the day that she believed that Shipman was coming to murder him. Wow. 

[00:32:55] Kyle Risi: The nutso thing is that Jim's father was one of the family members who was also questioning Harold's diagnosis and how much morphine he was giving him. And it turns out that he was also a patient of Shipman and soon after he gets involved, his father dies under mysterious circumstances.

[00:33:11] Kyle Risi: Not only that, but previously, Jim's aunts also die and guess who their doctor was?

[00:33:17] Adam Cox: Dr. Shipman. Yeah. Crazy. What? Wow. I can see why his nickname really caught on. 

[00:33:23] Kyle Risi: So Jim did eventually sue when it was established that he never had cancer at all.

[00:33:27] Kyle Risi: And he is awarded 260, 000 in compensation, I think. But despite this, following everything that happened, Shipman was still able to continue as normal. Nothing happened to him. Nothing. Isn't that nuts? So at his trial, the prosecution team called for literally hundreds of people who Shipman had prescribed morphine to, and On the stand, it turns out that they didn't even know that morphine had been prescribed to them at all.

[00:33:54] Kyle Risi: They never received it. He was just writing out prescriptions for morphine for various patients and they didn't know about it. But then he was 

[00:34:01] Adam Cox: using that extra morphine to kill other patients. 

[00:34:04] Kyle Risi: I guess he was creating like a stockpile. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:34:07] Adam Cox: That's really devious.

[00:34:08] Kyle Risi: In one case, Shipman had a patient die in surgery, and in his defence he says that they must have taken the morphine when he'd walked out of the room. And it just feels like his audacity has just no balance. Why 

[00:34:22] Adam Cox: would... I mean, it could happen, but it feels just so uh, ridiculous to get Oh, they're in so much pain in that instant.

[00:34:27] Adam Cox: They just took 

[00:34:27] Kyle Risi: the morphine. I'm going to fill up a vial of morphine and inject it into myself. Yeah. I mean, do an overdose. 

[00:34:34] Adam Cox: I guess if he's gotten away with it for so long, for 25 years at this point or something like that. Then he probably thinks he's immune like people have looked into it, but obviously brushed it off He's got away and well, no one can catch me You just 

[00:34:47] Kyle Risi: get more brazen and i'll come on to that later on when we look at some of his victims Especially towards the end his numbers just ramp up.

[00:34:54] Kyle Risi: When it comes to the number of his victims it's messed up Especially when you compare this to other known serial killers, for instance, ted bundy was estimated to have killed 30 people at least Jeffrey Dahmer, 17 confirmed victims. Richard, uh, Ramirez, who we discussed in the Curse of the Cecil, 13 confirmed victims.

[00:35:15] Kyle Risi: But in Shipman's case, investigators were pursuing at least 218 victims. What? With estimates upward of 285. That is crazy. Isn't that shocking? What makes Shipman's case even more chilling is that the environment that he operated in directly facilitated his ability to kill, right?

[00:35:35] Kyle Risi: The system itself provided him both of the tools and the opportunity. And that just makes us even more 

[00:35:41] Adam Cox: chilling. Yeah, because I, well, the, I guess a traditional serial killer, in the sense that they're going out stalking whatever and having to hide the body. Here he can hide in plain sight a lot of the time, and that's a huge number that he ramped up.

[00:35:55] Kyle Risi: Wow. Exactly. So the reason why it's so difficult to pin down the exact number of victims was because of the sheer number of cremations that he had signed off, right? Equally, many of the bodies that were successfully exhumed were in such an advanced state of decomposition that it was feared that it might be difficult to conduct any thorough examination on their bodies whatsoever.

[00:36:16] Kyle Risi: Mm-hmm. So they weren't banking on it, but because of the amount of morphine that he was administering, they were able to detect the morphine inside their systems. That's how much he was giving them. 

[00:36:26] Adam Cox: Wow. So this could be several years after then. 

[00:36:28] Kyle Risi: Mm-hmm. . Wow.

[00:36:28] Kyle Risi: There was also a testimony from a woman called Elaine Oswald who said that she went to Shipman complaining of a mild stomach ache And Shipman told her that he'd take care of her And the last thing that she remembers is Shipman just approaching her with a hypodermic needle And then the next thing she's just lying on the floor bleeding from her mouth.

[00:36:45] Kyle Risi: She can't breathe and she only survives because the family discover her and they managed to help her in time. And so when was this? Oh, I don't know. 

[00:36:53] Adam Cox: That's an Obviously, it's a horrific instance and from her perspective. She must have thought that was him that did that or she's got a 

[00:37:00] Kyle Risi: shit. Oh Initially, but this is how he justified it.

[00:37:04] Kyle Risi: So Shipman claims that she had suffered an allergic reaction and then he has the audacity to then visit her in hospital saying that he was there to check up on her. Ah, 

[00:37:13] Adam Cox: and I guess, why wouldn't you believe that if you've no reason to? Exactly. 

[00:37:18] Kyle Risi: This is the thing he's able to get away with so much because he is a doctor in that sacred, trusted like role.

[00:37:27] Kyle Risi: Why would you ever question it? Also, if you're defending yourself, you're going to believe what the doctor's saying, right? You're going to believe their justifications. It's just horrific. 

[00:37:36] Kyle Risi: So, testimonies also emerged from various doctors and nurses talking about how they had possibly witnessed... Kind of Shipman's attempts on patient's lives. 

[00:37:43] Kyle Risi: In one instance, Shipman was attending to a patient and needed a drug release signature. And when he went to go ask someone to sign off on it, they were like, wait a minute. I was literally just in there a second ago and they were fine. Right. So they were like. Yeah, they almost caught him. They were like, well, this is weird.

[00:37:59] Kyle Risi: Why are they giving them those drugs? 

[00:38:00] Adam Cox: But still not enough to throw up or 

[00:38:03] Kyle Risi: change anything. But again, the system didn't allow it. And we'll talk about that in a second. Well, in retrospect, when investigators were looking into how he was able to get away with this for so long, one of the major things that stood out was the absence of any form of kind of centralized reporting authority.

[00:38:19] Kyle Risi: Right? So families in Hyde and Yorkshire, for instance, were not reporting to the same authorities. Which meant that over time, although concerns about Shipman were raised, they were just scattered across different departments and different agencies.

[00:38:33] Kyle Risi: Right, okay. So when Shipman was interrogated, they noted how super condescending and arrogant that he was towards the investigators, believing like he was just above them. And the moment that they present him with photos of his victims, he just completely switches off. He turns away and refuses to answer any questions.

[00:38:50] Kyle Risi: And eventually he is found guilty of 15 counts of murder and one count of forgery. Although they could have charged him with way more, but investigators were like, we have enough now to send him away for life. And they just didn't feel like it was necessary to overwhelm the courts with, quite literally if they wanted to, hundreds of cases.

[00:39:09] Kyle Risi: Because it would have just, it's pointless, we've got him now for life. Yeah, okay. It's almost a bit of a, it's sad that they didn't catch him on all those other ones. Because it's almost like you're not recognizing them. 

[00:39:21] Adam Cox: And also if you are, um, the family of one of the other victims. I guess you now have this hunch, but you don't have the actual proof potentially.

[00:39:30] Adam Cox: Yeah. And does that bring them closure? 

[00:39:32] Kyle Risi: I mean... Exactly. That's a really good point. I would want the closure. I would want them to investigate. I would want his count. of my family member's murder to be spoken out against him in court. I want to hear it. Yeah. Not just, oh, potentially 218 other people. Yeah.

[00:39:50] Adam Cox: And I think if you know that, well, my, you know, mom or dad or whatever was a little bit ill, but was it that that actually killed them off or? 

[00:39:59] Kyle Risi: Yeah. The subsequent inquiry that came out of this resulted in the UK having to revamp its entire medical regulatory system.

[00:40:06] Kyle Risi: Now projects like the NHS spine project, which I briefly worked on back in 2004 in Leeds became instrumental in this overhaul. Essentially it replaced the entire NHS data infrastructure and put in place safeguards, like more robust audit trails for monitoring access to patient records, real time data analytics to identify suspicious kind of prescribing patterns, and strict access controls to limit the information that healthcare providers could interact with based on their roles.

[00:40:36] Kyle Risi: And this ended up costing billions. In fact, it's still one of the most expensive government projects in the history of the UK, only second to HS2. But, remember before all of this doctors could record the cause of death without any verification but now checks and balances are in place to ensure that prescription drugs like dimorphine can't easily be misused or misprescribed.

[00:41:01] Adam Cox: I guess that's the good thing that's come out of all this is that there's better controls to prevent this from happening again. You know, we learn from those lessons. It's just a shame it happened. Well, a real shame that it happened in the first place. 

[00:41:13] Kyle Risi: Yeah. What's sickening is that people said that Shipman relished in writing letters telling families that their loved ones had died.

[00:41:21] Kyle Risi: And apparently Took pleasure in watching them read it if they were ever present, which is just really sad. That's disgusting. How did they know that? I don't know. This is just the compendium. Okay. Surface deep. Okay. Makes me feel sick though, knowing that.

[00:41:35] Kyle Risi: So Shipman is sentenced to serve 15 life sentences at Wakefield Prison in West Yorkshire. Initially, he's placed on suicide watch. Because they think like, why wouldn't he want to kill himself after this? But he doesn't, and so eventually his surveillance is relaxed and he starts receiving scheduled visits from his wife Primrose.

[00:41:52] Kyle Risi: So, Shipman has this hefty retirement fund, right? Which states that if he dies before 60, his wife would receive the full amount from this fund. But if he dies after 60, then she would receive a reduced amount. So on the night before his 58th birthday, he hangs himself in his prison cell. So that Primrose would get the full payout.

[00:42:13] Kyle Risi: Really? 

[00:42:14] Adam Cox: So he did all that to give back or do something for his wife? Yeah, look after 

[00:42:19] Kyle Risi: his family. I wonder what she thought about this the whole time. Yeah, that's mad. It's mad that Primrose stood by him from the very beginning. People did question how she couldn't have known, especially when she had in the early days driven him to see his patients for a while.

[00:42:34] Kyle Risi: But honestly, I disagree. Unless he came home and outright told her like casually, How was your day, honey? You know what I mean? Then how would she know? 

[00:42:43] Adam Cox: But then to not know and stand by him the whole time, you know, I think like you said, if she didn't know, there's no reason to question that or whatever.

[00:42:51] Adam Cox: He's a doctor. I'm sure in her eyes, he was a good person. But then afterwards, to still 

[00:42:57] Kyle Risi: visit him? Exactly. So I do question why she stood after him after all this came to light. For the money? Possibly. I mean, she's obviously got her blinders on when it comes to the evidence against him. I mean, if I found out that you were killing cats, could I stand by you?

[00:43:11] Kyle Risi: I genuinely do not know. Maybe for a nice pension payout, who knows? But again, he is potentially the father of her children. Her whole life has been centred around this man, but she did get a lot of shit in the aftermath. Yeah, and part 

[00:43:27] Adam Cox: of me would be like, I mean, obviously, yeah, you've got the money that perhaps you were banking on for retirement, but that's money that is guilt money.

[00:43:35] Adam Cox: That's connected to death. 

[00:43:37] Kyle Risi: I wouldn't want that. Yeah, it's shocking. So, what happens when our trust is shattered? When a doctor, a police officer, or any figure of authority We have been conditioned to trust, turns out to be a monstrous, serial killer. Mm-hmm. Naturally, there is a serious amount of rebuilding that the N H s needs to undergo.

[00:43:59] Kyle Risi: And I guess the silver lining here is that they have tried to rebuild with kind of new protocols that have been put in place. Like for example, the Spine project. An early protocol put in place did help catch another guy called Colin Norris. So he was caught after killing four elderly patients in a nursing home in 2002.

[00:44:18] Kyle Risi: And he was found to be injecting fatal doses of insulin into non diabetic patients. Do you remember that? Yeah. So he was only caught as a result of improvements into how medical logs were managed, among obviously other things. Of course, this was the early days following Shipman when a lot of these protocols were still emerging.

[00:44:36] Kyle Risi: So it could have been a lot worse, way more than four potentially. But worryingly in 2008, the University of Dundee did an investigation into how effective these new monitoring of patient protocols were performing. And it actually suggested that it would still take around 30 deaths before.

[00:44:53] Kyle Risi: A murderous trend was detected. Something 

[00:44:55] Adam Cox: would flag up. Well, only recently, there was another case of that other nurse, Lucy Letby. That's right, yeah. Um, so she's been accused or sentenced, I don't know if she's going for a retrial or whatever at this moment in time, but she's been accused of killing, sort of, infants 

[00:45:10] Kyle Risi: and children.

[00:45:11] Kyle Risi: It's shocking. I wanted to do a whole episode on that, but I think it's just too fresh right now. Yeah, and I 

[00:45:16] Adam Cox: just, when it's these young, defenceless kids... It's worse, isn't it? Yeah, I'm not saying it is worse. A life is a life, but... 

[00:45:24] Kyle Risi: But what's interesting about her story, though, is that A, it's babies. Who doesn't love a baby?

[00:45:29] Kyle Risi: And it's a woman. Do you know what I mean? It's almost like the worst. It's worse than Harold Shipman, almost, to a degree. You're supposed to 

[00:45:37] Adam Cox: care for this baby, or anyone's supposed to see a baby and want to care and protect it, right? Even if it's yours or not, you want to make sure it's safe and not cause any harm.

[00:45:46] Adam Cox: And you've got this woman, although I have heard people, I think her friends that went to university said they just can't imagine her doing it. She never showed any signs whatsoever that she was this way inclined. But again, it's one of those things where perhaps she's got away with one, two, and then she becomes 

[00:46:02] Kyle Risi: brave and...

[00:46:03] Kyle Risi: Same with Harold Chipman, right? There's probably people out there that were like, I can't see him doing this. He was, he was so loved and cared for, and he was such a pillar of the community. I think people are 

[00:46:13] Adam Cox: fascinated by this kind of. Because of how they feel betrayed by these people, there was that film, The Good Nurse, 

[00:46:20] Kyle Risi: I think it was.

[00:46:21] Kyle Risi: Oh God, yeah, with Ben Whishaw? Um, no, 

[00:46:24] Adam Cox: Eddie Redman. Oh, Eddie Redman, yeah. And Jessica Chastain. So that, I think it was based, it's based on a true story, that one. I don't know if it was UK, I think it might have been Scandinavian. But very similar thing where a nurse suspects that another nurse is killing another patient.

[00:46:36] Adam Cox: Very good film.

[00:46:37] Kyle Risi: So, essentially, it's clear that the system is still broken, regardless of the measures that are currently in place, even today. I mean, if you can't trust a doctor, though. Who can you trust? Who can you trust? And of course, recovery starts when a system responds effectively.

[00:46:52] Kyle Risi: And I don't think it's quite there just yet. So, that's it. 

[00:46:56] Adam Cox: I think there's always going to be people that might find loopholes and ways around it. So everything needs to evolve and become better. 

[00:47:03] Kyle Risi: I want to show you something. Because I think it's really important that we acknowledge it. This is a list of all the victims of Harold Shipman. And, it's just a list of names. You probably won't be able to identify any of the identities against them, but just scroll through this list from top to bottom to get a sense of...

[00:47:23] Kyle Risi: Just how many victims there were. God, there's just, 

[00:47:26] Adam Cox: there's so many. It's one every, or a couple every month. But looking at it, it spans years. And it just goes on. It's 200 odd people on this list. And they're the ones that they think are, obviously, um, as a result of him.

[00:47:38] Kyle Risi: The haunting aspect of this list is that between 1995 and 1997, he committed more than a third of all the murders on this list, averaging 31 murders per year. Just across those three years.

[00:47:50] Kyle Risi: And by the time he was caught in 1998, his numbers were ramping up, he was becoming more and more prolific. In March 1995 alone, he killed 10 people in a single month. Isn't that horrific? How did 

[00:48:03] Adam Cox: he deliver himself? That's horrendous. Who 

[00:48:05] Kyle Risi: knows? If Angela Woodruff hadn't stepped in, hadn't questioned her mother's will, hadn't questioned the position that her mother was found in, this list would have been a lot more.

[00:48:16] Kyle Risi: And he could even potentially be killing today. Yeah. Because we wouldn't have things like the Spine Project and these other, these early protocols that they were instilling. Good for her. So what 

[00:48:25] Adam Cox: were his motives from all this?

[00:48:27] Adam Cox: Did he find joy in doing this? Obviously there was the money with some of them that he was trying to get for his surgery, but was that it? 

[00:48:34] Kyle Risi: Well, interesting you say that because even today his motives are not completely known really. They don't think it was for the money. There doesn't seem to be a significant number of people who had left him money in their will.

[00:48:45] Kyle Risi: There was one case where a woman had left him some money, but this was contested in court and he ended up with nothing. But until Kathleen, there wasn't really any other indication that money was a motive. Some people do speculate that he was literally just addicted to killing since his previous drug dependency proved he had an addictive personality.

[00:49:06] Kyle Risi: Others suggest that he may have thought he was practicing euthanasia and then some even suggest that he just really liked it and extracted pleasure from the power that he had as a doctor to control life and death.

[00:49:19] Kyle Risi: Yeah, 

[00:49:19] Adam Cox: play God. Because I don't see how he, well, some of these, from what you've said, it sounds like some of these people were perfectly healthy. So that's not practicing. That's 

[00:49:28] Kyle Risi: true. Yeah, that's not euthanasia. That's a good point. But ultimately, we don't actually know. And so with the sheer number of victims that he had, Shipman is amongst the worst serial killer in history.

[00:49:38] Kyle Risi: But what sets him apart from other serial killers is that he didn't have to hunt his victims, right? They came to him. And that's a terrifying thought. And that is the shocking but very real story of Harold Chipman. 

[00:49:50] Adam Cox: Yeah. God, that's 

[00:49:52] Kyle Risi: harrowing, really.

[00:49:54] Kyle Risi: So you're going to think twice next time you go to the GP? Well, I 

[00:49:57] Adam Cox: hope, I hope this is a very, you know, small instance of malpractice in the grand scheme of 

[00:50:04] Kyle Risi: things. Let's hope so. I mean, with Lucy Lekby, who knows what other ones are out there, right? Hmm. 

[00:50:09] Adam Cox: So. Get a second opinion, guys. 

[00:50:12] Kyle Risi: Always get a second opinion.

[00:50:13] Kyle Risi: So ready for the outro? Yeah, let's do it. And so we come to the end of another episode of the Compendium and Assembly of fascinating and intriguing things. If you found today's episode both fascinating and intriguing, then subscribe and leave us a review. But don't just stop there.

[00:50:27] Kyle Risi: Schedule your episodes to download automatically. Doing so, really ensures that you are always in the loop, but also helps boost our visibility. Helping us serve you even more captivating tales straight to your ears. You can also follow us on Instagram at thecompendiumpodcast or visit our home on the web at thecompendiumpodcast.

[00:50:46] Kyle Risi: com. New episodes are released every Tuesday. And so, until then, remember, everything can be a red flag. 

[00:50:55] Kyle Risi: See you later. 

[00:50:56] Kyle Risi: Bye.