[EPISODE 22] Amanda Knox: and the Murder of Meredith Kercher, Part I

[00:00:00] Kyle Risi: and the police asks if Meredith usually locks the door and Philomena's like Meredith never locks her door. Alright. Philomena. Yeah. She's such a busy body and Philomena's like you need to break down the door. But the police are like, we can't, not without a warrant.

[00:00:14] Kyle Risi: So eventually Philomena's friends manage to break down the door. Okay. When Philomena and the police walk in there is blood everywhere. And they see a foot sticking out from under a large tan duvet and someone starts yelling.

[00:00:28] Kyle Risi: But Amanda. All she hears with her limited Italian is that there is a foot and she thinks that they found a dead body in the armoire. 

[00:00:37] Kyle Risi: Welcome to the compendium, a story that's about to knocks your socks off. Oh, I see what you did there. For those of you tuning in for the very first time, I'm your host, Kyle Risi, 

[00:01:09] Adam Cox: and I'm your co-host Adam Cox, 

[00:01:12] Kyle Risi: and you're listening to the Compendium and Assembly of fascinating and intriguing things.

[00:01:16] Kyle Risi: We're a weekly podcast where I, Kyle Risi, ordinarily tell Adam Cox all about a topic that I think he'll find both fascinating and intriguing. 

[00:01:24] Kyle Risi: So Adam, how are you this week? 

[00:01:26] Adam Cox: I'm very well, thank you, Kyle. All, all very good. 

[00:01:29] Kyle Risi: Yeah. And here for another compendium, huh? It's been quite a busy week this week. Um, before we delve into today's episode, I just want to take a moment to express our gratitude for your overwhelming support. You guys are totally awesome, we've just had so many really amazing reviews than the last few weeks. 

[00:01:46] Adam Cox: Yeah. And some really nice comments and messages. So thank you. I feel like. It's like we have a fan base now. 

[00:01:52] Kyle Risi: It is, yeah. And, and the thing is though, you guys need to realize that every, like, every share, every subscription, it really genuinely helps our show grow.

[00:02:00] Kyle Risi: So it's just awesome that you guys are there and that you're so engaged with us as well. So we, we appreciate it. And also we reviews, they play a massive part. So if you can spare just a few moments to leave us a cheeky five star review, then we would be eternally grateful because you can, oh, actually I think where, can you reveal us?

[00:02:19] Kyle Risi: You can reveal us on Apple and also Spotify. Is that right? I think so, yes. And literally we're not proud. So either Will do. But if you're thinking of leaving us a four star review, then first reach out to us because then we can recommend a couple other podcasts where you can leave that four star review on us.

[00:02:35] Kyle Risi: Sneaky. We also might just read your review next week on the next episode. So get a shout out. Get a shout out man. For those of you who also can't get enough of the compendium, as you know, we're also on, uh, Instagram at the compendium pod. So follow us and just help us trick those pesca algorithms.

[00:02:51] Kyle Risi: If you're anything like me and you enjoy the thrill of outsmarting the system, then follow us because it really will have an impact. But there's more, there's more. It's been a busy week, Adam, because this week the compendium now has its very own home on the interwebs. So you can now find us at our very own website@thecompendiumpodcast.com.

[00:03:13] Kyle Risi: Oh wow. So that's where you can find all our latest episodes, uh, news, more events that might be coming up in the future, maybe, who knows? So yeah, just uh, have a little browse and let us know what you think. 

[00:03:24] Adam Cox: Alright. Enough of plugging our show. Let's get, let's get onto 

[00:03:26] Kyle Risi: today's episode. What have you got on the menu today? Well, today's episode of the Compendium, we are gonna be tackling the infamous Amanda Knox and Meredith Kercher murder case. I thought 

[00:03:37] Adam Cox: so. I thought we were doing this.

[00:03:39] Adam Cox: What do you remember of this? 

[00:03:40] Kyle Risi: Um, 

[00:03:40] Adam Cox: so I think, well, I remember, so it was quite a while ago, and the, there were students where they traveling and one of them got accused of killing the other. 

[00:03:52] Kyle Risi: Well, you're partly right.

[00:03:54] Kyle Risi: Yes. So in 2007, Meredith was a British student studying in Italy when she ended up being tragically murdered. So soon after her roommate Amanda Knox and her boyfriend Raphael accused of her murder, which then ended up just capturing kind of the global kind of media attention.

[00:04:11] Kyle Risi: So today I'll be telling you what happened to Meredith and the role that the media played in shaping the public's opinion and how it ultimately ended up. Like impacting the trial of Amanda and Raphael in the end. Mm-hmm. We'll also dive into kind of the gaping flaws in the Italian justice system and how this ended up essentially failing not only Amanda, but also Meredith itself.

[00:04:34] Kyle Risi: Because ultimately, if it wasn't for the media and if it wasn't for kind of the, the major flaws in the Italian justice system, then they would've found Meredith's killer a lot sooner. Oh, really? They would've got justice for her. Okay. So it just goes to show, it's like it's this conflict between trying to get the latest story and how that can have these real negative ramifications on, on actual real people's lives.

[00:04:58] Kyle Risi: Mm-hmm. Which is just crazy, so a lot of the information today actually comes from Amanda Knox's book titled, waiting to Be Heard, and it's probably the only source that you can really trust when it comes to what actually happened to Amanda because like so many of the articles and so many of the reportings out there are just so inflated or just kind of like, what's the word?

[00:05:20] Kyle Risi: Um, Sensationalized. Mm-hmm. Is just ridiculous. So this is her 

[00:05:24] Kyle Risi: autobiography, so her own words and retelling of everything that happened to 

[00:05:27] Kyle Risi: her. That's correct, yes. There's also a Netflix documentary as well, um, which is another excellent source of information, which covers the perspective of the press, which plays such a massive role in this case.

[00:05:38] Kyle Risi: And also the outcome of the story. 

[00:05:39] Adam Cox: I didn't realize the press had such a negative impact on the story, because I Know there was obviously the evidence that convicted Amanda and then, and then overturned that, but I didn't realize it was the press 

[00:05:52] Kyle Risi: that, well, they wanted to sell a salacious story, right?

[00:05:55] Kyle Risi: Mm-hmm. Like she was the perfect person to help sell these newspapers. She was this beautiful blonde American, her roommate tragically got murdered. They just wanted to build this story around her in order to just sell more newspapers. And just the Italian press, no, the world, it was the world press.

[00:06:14] Kyle Risi: That's, but also, but also mostly it was the UK press. Well, that's what I was thinking. I was really pioneering 

[00:06:18] Adam Cox: it. I was really interested in whether it was like it, 'cause obviously the UK has, a bit of a bad rep when it comes to our sort of tabloids. Yeah. So I did wonder if it was actually like Italian tabloids Sure.

[00:06:31] Adam Cox: That were just as bad, or actually it was us.

[00:06:34] Kyle Risi: Well as you'll come to find out later on, this was kind of around, around the year 2007. So this was kind of like the phone tapping scandal. Mm-hmm. All the crap that uh, the, the McCanns were getting as well with the papers.

[00:06:42] Adam Cox: Oh yeah, that's right. That's when that um, yeah, when Madeline went 

[00:06:45] Kyle Risi: first went missing. That's it. So this was kind of like news of the world heyday, if you will. So really aggressive kind of media reporting where almost no holes were barred, essentially. Mm-hmm. So, yeah. Also Raphael Sollecito, who you'll come to know later on as Amanda's boyfriend at the time, he also wrote a book called On Abound, which is worth reading. It's sad because Raphael ultimately does go through the mill, which is often glossed over in the retelling of the story.

[00:07:14] Kyle Risi: Mm-hmm. And lastly, Meredith Kercher father, John Kercher, who is a renowned journalist, and his story is really sad and we'll come onto that later on. But he wrote a book called Meredith, which details his daughter's murder and the search for obviously their truth. Now, John's book actually tells the story from the other side.

[00:07:33] Kyle Risi: What's interesting is that the Kercher family still believe that Amanda and Raphael are guilty. Oh, really? Mm-hmm. 

[00:07:41] Adam Cox: So even though they've been, 

[00:07:42] Kyle Risi: um, exonerated,

[00:07:43] Adam Cox: Okay, so we're gonna go into why they still 

[00:07:45] Kyle Risi: believe that, right? Yeah. I mean, it's not really difficult to kind of understand why.

[00:07:50] Kyle Risi: I mean, they were at the forefront of a lot of the feedback that was being received from the police the first accounts of the evidence and stuff, so. Mm-hmm. I mean, I don't believe that they're guilty. I honestly believe that Amanda and Raphael are completely innocent, but I don't blame them.

[00:08:03] Kyle Risi: They've lost their daughter the end of the day. We will provide all the links to the show notes on everything that we discussed today, including obviously where you can find Amanda's, Netflix documentary, believe it or not, on Netflix.

[00:08:14] Kyle Risi: Mm-hmm. So, yeah. Should we get into it? Let's do it.

[00:08:17] Kyle Risi: So Meredith, Susanna, Cara Kercher was born on December the 28th in 1985 in Southwalk in London. Now her parents were John and Arlene Kercher, and Meredith was the youngest in her family joining her brother Lyle and her sister Stephanie. Now Meredith was extremely charismatic. She was intelligent, she was beautiful, and she studied diligently and really made friends really easily as well.

[00:08:44] Kyle Risi: So she was really, really outgoing and a real extrovert. She attended the Old Palace school in Croydon, spending a year abroad when she was kind of 15. And after a time abroad, Meredith and her family spent the summer in Italy, southern coast, where Meredith really fell in love with Italy and vowed that she was gonna return to the country, learn the language, and just eventually live there.

[00:09:08] Adam Cox: I, I agree. I love Italy, so I can totally 

[00:09:10] Kyle Risi: get that. It's gorgeous. I mean, everywhere you go in Italy is just so different to the other parts of it. If you go north, if you go south, no matter where you go, it's just stunning. Mm-hmm. 

[00:09:18] Kyle Risi: So she was actually studying at the University of Leeds and she studied European politics and Italian, and she was supporting herself working as a bartender and also as a tour guide. Then when the opportunity to study in Italy presented herself, obviously she jumps at the chance. Now Meredith chose to study at the University of Perugia, which is about 102 miles north of Rome and about 92 miles southeast of kind of like Florence.

[00:09:47] Kyle Risi: So if you can kind of like picture that in your head. Okay. It is a college town, so it's really rich in history and culture. It's like one of the oldest towns in Italy. And they host multiple annual festivals, like the European Chocolate Festival in October. They have the Umbr Jazz Festival in July and the International Journalism Festival in April.

[00:10:09] Kyle Risi: So it's like a real cerebral town. Loads of academics. I think like the population of the city is like 160,000, but the number of students that live in Perugia is like 40,000. Okay. So it's a huge amount. Mm-hmm. And there's loads of universities, not just the two. I think it's like seven different. So big education institutions, big student population.

[00:10:29] Kyle Risi: Yeah. Huge. Absolutely 

[00:10:31] Adam Cox: huge. And the chocolate festival sounds incredible. I wouldn't mind going 

[00:10:34] Kyle Risi: to that. I had no idea that like Perugia was really famous for its chocolate. Hugely famous like so on the top of list you've got like Swiss chocolate, you've got Belgian chocolate, but also Italian Perugian chocolate is really up there as well, which I'd never know.

[00:10:47] Kyle Risi: I've never heard. No, me neither. We're probably gonna see it everywhere now. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:10:51] Kyle Risi: So Meredith shared a flat with three other women, including 20 year old Amanda Knox. Their address was number seven, Villa Della Pergola, or Pergola Perga Pergola. Meredith arrived in Perugia in late August of 2007, and quickly became friends with a group of British girls mm-hmm. At the time, Meredith was 21 years old and she was already really well traveled.

[00:11:13] Kyle Risi: She was extremely sophisticated and she fit in really well with life in Italy and amongst obviously her new Italian friends. Her older flatmates were Philomena and Laura, who largely lived different lives, mostly due to kind of their age. They were like in their tw they were 28, almost 30. Okay. So naturally Meredith would gravitate towards Amanda Knox, and that's where.

[00:11:37] Kyle Risi: She comes into our story. So Amanda arrived in Perugia on the 20th of September, 2007, and Amanda's journey to Perugia wasn't quite as smooth. She was born on July the ninth, 1987. In Seattle. In Washington. So she's an American girl, and Amanda was the daughter of Kurt Knox, who was Macy's vice president of finance.

[00:11:58] Kyle Risi: And her mother was a woman called Ed Ellis, who was a maths teacher. Mm-hmm.

[00:12:02] Kyle Risi: So a few years after her birth, Amanda's parents divorce, both parents were obviously naturally committed to co-parenting and her father decided to buy a house just a few blocks down the road so he could be actively involved in his daughter's lives.

[00:12:15] Kyle Risi: Now, Amanda and her sister Dina, they were from her parents' first marriage, but she actually had three sisters in total. The other two were Delaney and Ashley and Amanda primarily lived with her mother, her sister Dina, and her mother's second husband Chris. Now Amanda attended Seattle Prep High School then went on to University of Washington in Seattle, and Amanda refers to kind of the Seattle prepped as her strict Jesuit high school because it was a really extremely strict Catholic school.

[00:12:47] Kyle Risi: So there was like, No mucking around her boys. It was all very kind of straight lace and very strict. So this is the kind of environment that she kind of was familiar with. Okay. Now, she'd also been to Italy at 15 and also fell in love with the language and the culture. So it's interesting, like the two girls share that kind of, that same parallel, 

[00:13:04] Adam Cox: I guess. Yeah. Similarity maybe. Well, 

[00:13:07] Kyle Risi: it spoke to them. Yeah, I guess so. And as it does to so many people. I mean, that's why she's, she ended up in Italy, I guess, because of this love.

[00:13:13] Kyle Risi: I mean, And pizza. And pizza, yeah. So while Meredith was this sleek and sophisticated young British woman, Amanda describes herself as naive, a bit immature for her age, and people typically found her like quirky. She was athletic, she was kind of considered quite inexperienced and rather kind of idealistic as a person.

[00:13:33] Kyle Risi: She was what you might call a dreamer or like a way with her fairies. That was kind of her personality. Amanda was known for kind of like singing really loudly in school hallways. She would like just dance randomly in front of people and she would also kind of like really speak her mind without filtering.

[00:13:49] Kyle Risi: Mm-hmm. So basically she was really annoying. 

[00:13:52] Adam Cox: Well, she was just young, you know? You, you, yeah. 

[00:13:53] Kyle Risi: Perhaps are more annoying. She sounds exactly like me as far as I'm 

[00:13:56] Adam Cox: concerned. What now or when you would like, oh yeah, I haven't changed. Yeah, I was gonna say, 

[00:14:01] Kyle Risi: so Amanda decided that she was also gonna study a year in Italy and believe that Italy.

[00:14:07] Kyle Risi: Was gonna be the thing that changed her into an adult. So Amanda worked several jobs to save money, uh, to live in Perugia. Unlike Meredith, Amanda had a role in the University of Foreigners. Like I said earlier on, there was like several different universities across Perugia. Now, in her book, she mentions that she thought that Meredith would also be at the same university, only to find out that Meredith was studying at the University of Perugia.

[00:14:32] Kyle Risi: So like she's a bit miffed because the University of Foreigners is just gonna be filled with other students who don't really speak Italian. Okay. And the whole point of it was to like learn Italian. Exactly. And immerse yourself in the culture. But she was like, oh, well, she didn't even know it was an option.

[00:14:47] Kyle Risi: Fine. So in August, 2007, Amanda and her sister Dina take a trip to Perugia, and the aim was to just familiarize themselves with the city and find a place to live before kind of term started. And during their visit. The girls meet Laura Mazzetti, and it just so happens that she's on the lookout for roommates and Laura lives at Flat number seven via Della Pergola.

[00:15:12] Kyle Risi: So it was perfect timing. Straightaway they hit it off and Amanda agrees to move into the house share, and later they find a fourth roommate. And this was a young woman from England and it was Meredith, right? So eventually Amanda returns to Perugia to start her studies, and this is where she meets Meredith for the very first time.

[00:15:32] Kyle Risi: Meredith is kind of like really popular. She introduces Amanda to kind of all her favorite spots around the city, around the city. And yeah, so it was just a really exciting time for these girls, like starting off on this really awesome adventure a year, studying abroad in this beautiful country. They're like 20 something and.

[00:15:49] Kyle Risi: They're just in the process of like finding themselves. 

[00:15:51] Adam Cox: I remember starting university and it was just such a, all that kind of buildup. 'cause you go through education, GCSEs, then a levels, and then when you first like, I dunno. 'cause it's 'cause of that buildup when you're finally there, it's kind of like what I'm here and it is kind of like, I don't believe it.

[00:16:06] Adam Cox: And you have that independence, you learn how to cook. Mm-hmm You have to be thrown into all different social circles. I did. Yeah. Absolutely loved university. 

[00:16:14] Kyle Risi: That's it. Yeah. And this is where these girls are. And for the first time they're like truly independent as exactly as you said.

[00:16:21] Kyle Risi: Mm-hmm. So Adam, let's set the stage. Okay. Give us a bit of a sense of what 2007 was like. 

[00:16:28] Adam Cox: Oh God, that takes me back. Um, let's think fashion, um, that's the first thing that comes to mind. I remember I had like long or longer swooped hair. I. Oh yeah, we 

[00:16:37] Kyle Risi: had the, the emo hair or like the Justin Bieber hair.

[00:16:40] Kyle Risi: Yeah. 

[00:16:40] Adam Cox: That kind of thing. Guys had long, tend to have longer hair. Mm-hmm. Sort of more scruffy in that sense. Mm-hmm. And you'd wear like a polo shirt with like the collar up. Yeah, that's 

[00:16:49] Kyle Risi: it. Um, the, the preppy look was in, wasn't it? Yeah. And I think like Hollister was big at the time. Yes. American Eagle was really big.

[00:16:56] Kyle Risi: Um, 

[00:16:56] Adam Cox: baggier clothes 

[00:16:57] Kyle Risi: generally slightly baggy. Oh really? No. Do you know what? I was starting to wear Skinny jeans and tighter jeans round about then I think they 

[00:17:03] Adam Cox: started to come in, but I don't think they, there was like as popular as I say, skinny jeans were like a few years ago, so it was still right.

[00:17:10] Adam Cox: Still people 'cause more like beachy, that kind of surfy type sort of style 

[00:17:14] Kyle Risi: I think. Yeah. I definitely remember the preppy type 

[00:17:16] Adam Cox: and the music was all about sort of r and b and Rock I think was still kind of, rock pop was still kind of popular, but he had like Rihanna, I remember Umbrella came up.

[00:17:23] Adam Cox: Umbrella was a big one. 

[00:17:24] Kyle Risi: Yeah. 

[00:17:25] Adam Cox: Um, yeah, I think Kanye West, was it? Yeah, Kanye West was all, uh, Timberland. Mm-hmm. I remember they were really big at the time. Kaiser chiefs. Yes. Yeah. Ruby. Ruby. Ruby. Oh God. I remember singing that. Like in the streets. Yeah. At university. 

[00:17:37] Kyle Risi: That was a good one. What was big in the news?

[00:17:40] Adam Cox: Well, we covered, um, about Madeline McCann. Yeah. 

[00:17:42] Kyle Risi: Unfortunately that happened what, in the March, didn't 

[00:17:44] Adam Cox: it? Yeah. So I remember, yeah, I remember that being the first year of university. Wasn't it also the first year the iPhone was released? 

[00:17:52] Kyle Risi: Yes. That's it. Yes. The iPhone got launched in 2007. 

[00:17:56] Adam Cox: I always, always thought it was earlier, but because of the, I think it was the, um, iPod, uh mm-hmm.

[00:18:00] Adam Cox: And, but then that was like such a big thing. 'cause no one had smartphones back then. No, 

[00:18:05] Kyle Risi: they didn't. Everyone was using a flip phone, weren't they? Everything. Yeah. Yeah. Great. Yeah. Anything else? What else was life like? Hmm? What were you like, Adam? How old were you in 2007? Uh, um, 

[00:18:16] Adam Cox: I was 19, 20. 

[00:18:18] Kyle Risi: Yeah, something like that. 

[00:18:19] Adam Cox: I, yeah, I returned 20 and I was in my second year. So work was starting to get slightly more serious, but not 

[00:18:26] Kyle Risi: that serious.

[00:18:27] Kyle Risi: That's it. Great. So we have a sense of where we're at time, right? Mm-hmm. So back in Perugia. Amanda is settling into life nicely. Amanda and Meredith are both attending classes at the retrospective kind of universities, and the pair spend most of their time together during the first four weeks.

[00:18:47] Kyle Risi: They're the youngest in the house. They both spoke English, so it made sense that they would get along, right? Mm-hmm. And they did all sorts of things together, right? They like, they gossiped about boys, they occaSollecitonally smoked marijuana. They drank some wine and they just explored the town together.

[00:19:01] Kyle Risi: Amanda, Would teach kind of Meredith how to play the guitar and their practice yoga together, which was like two of like Amanda's greatest loves. Mm-hmm. Together they attended the International Chocolate Festival. They shop for vintage clothes. They shared stories about boys and dating and just basic girl stuff.

[00:19:20] Kyle Risi: You know, like I totally imagine them pillow fighting in their underwear. 

[00:19:26] Adam Cox: Totally. That's a weird thing to say, but Sure. Okay. 

[00:19:28] Kyle Risi: Don't take that away from me. That's what girls do. Okay. So up until this point, Amanda had kind of casually been dating a couple guys, some of whom she ended up sleeping with.

[00:19:42] Kyle Risi: Now, in America, Amanda was considered cute. But in Italy, I. She was beautiful. Oh, men saw her as this kind of a blonde, exotic American woman, which Italian men. Yes. Italian men. Yeah. So I imagine that must've been quite dizzying for her at the time. So in her book, she does speak openly about kind of like wanting to find herself in Italy and talks about kind of exploring casual relationships to try understand what it was that she wanted in a partner.

[00:20:08] Kyle Risi: Mm-hmm. We've all been there. We've all done that. This is exactly what you do at university. However, casual sex for her doesn't really seem to work out too well for her. It kind of ends up making her feel more kind of heartsick than happy, so. Mm-hmm. It doesn't really become a major habit for, it's not something that she actively is seeking out.

[00:20:24] Kyle Risi: Sure. But she's popular. So you're gonna kind of explore that. If you, if you, when you can, if you, if you didn't realize you were pretty, you're gonna be like, in Italy, I'm pretty, 

[00:20:32] Adam Cox: I'm sure she's pretty everywhere, but 

[00:20:35] Kyle Risi: Yeah, she's quite an attractive girl. I mean, both of them were beautiful. Mm-hmm. So now below Amanda and Meredith's apartment lived, Giacomo, Stefano, and Marco. And there was a fourth guy as well who kind of goes unmentioned.

[00:20:47] Kyle Risi: But based on the names I gather, it was probably something like Bradley. 

[00:20:52] Adam Cox: Um, I'm loving the name. Jacko. Stefano, that's, 

[00:20:54] Kyle Risi: no, that's two separate people. Oh, I thought that was Jacko Commerce, Stefano and Marco. 

[00:20:59] Adam Cox: Oh yeah. That would make such a good full name though. Jacko Stefano 

[00:21:04] Kyle Risi: or Jacko? Stefano Marco. Maybe they are just one person.

[00:21:06] Kyle Risi: No, they definitely are for people. Uh, but most evenings after dinner they would like kind of all hang out together by the basketball courts, which wasn't too far kind of away from their apartments. Again, just drinking, smoking, chilling, you know, like just being young, being university students. So by early October, Amanda begins to realize that her academic schedule isn't going to be as intense as she thought.

[00:21:26] Kyle Risi: So to fill her time and to combat kind of those feelings of listlessness and loneliness, she just decides that she's gonna get a job. So her roommate Laura, introduces her to a man named Juvie, who then introduces her to a man named Patrick Lobar, or Lumumba, I think Lumumba, I believe that's his name. Now.

[00:21:44] Kyle Risi: Patrick owns a bar called Lasik and he ends up offering Amanda a job like distribute and flyers, uh, to kind of attract people into the bar. And then when the bar opens, or like after like 11 or something, she's then a cocktail waitress. Mm-hmm.

[00:21:57] Kyle Risi: So after a few really uncomfortable experiences with overly forward men, Amanda and Meredith create kind of like this system where Meredith would walk Amanda home if she ever needed to. Mm-hmm. So one evening after an early close, Amanda calls Meredith to come and meet her, and they end up stopping off a local bar where they meet up with the boys from downstairs.

[00:22:21] Kyle Risi: Along with the neighbors is a new guy who they've never seen before, and his name is Rudy and he's from the Ivory Coast, which is like an African country. During the evening, Rudy says to the boys that he, he kind of has his eye on Meredith, but they all just laugh at him because they don't really think he stands a chance really.

[00:22:37] Kyle Risi: So ultimately nothing really comes of this, but Meredith later tells Amanda that she really likes one of the other boys from downstairs, and that's Giacomo. So one night after like a bit of flirting, a few drinks, Meredith and Giacomo, they end up kind of having a bit of a kiss together and they go home together.

[00:22:57] Kyle Risi: Meanwhile, Amanda brings home some random guy that is visiting from Rome. And this will be the only time that Amanda brings a guy home it's gonna be important later. And you're gonna see why. Okay. So on Thursday, October the 25th, Meredith and Amanda decide that they're all gonna go to a classical music concert together.

[00:23:16] Kyle Risi: And during the intermisSolleciton, Meredith is like, this is boring and leaves. So meet up with her British friends. But Amanda decides that she's gonna stay. Um, and while she's there, she meets a guy called Raphael Sollecito. Mm-hmm. That's a good name. Sollecito Sollecito. Sollecito. What Amanda says in her book is that she was sitting alone when Raphael approached her and he asked if he could join and it turns out that his English is way better than her Italian.

[00:23:42] Kyle Risi: So the pair just kind of end up kind of really hitting it off because the conversation is uninterrupted. It's not shaky. Like they can, they can just talk about more complex 

[00:23:50] Adam Cox: things. Sure. Well, everyone's English is better than people that are English. 

[00:23:55] Kyle Risi: Yeah. It's like the international language, isn't it?

[00:23:56] Kyle Risi: Everyone can speak English. Yeah. 

[00:23:58] Kyle Risi: Raphael asks to walk Amanda home, which she agrees to. And halfway he casually asks like, do you want to like smoke a joint something? And she's like, hell yeah. So they smoke a little. She's wild. Yeah, she's a wild. So they smoke a bit of a dub and somewhere along the way they stop, they share a kiss and they end up back at Raphael's apartment.

[00:24:19] Kyle Risi: Now he's really well off. So he kinda like lives alone at this point. Now Amanda starts to stay over at his place every time they hang out, which kind of makes sense, right? Mm-hmm. Like why go back to your house share where you can enjoy some privacy without any of your housemates, kind of like getting up in your business and stuff.

[00:24:34] Adam Cox: You have to like, um, what was the thing where you have to put something on your door like, I'm busy. Yeah, 

[00:24:37] Kyle Risi: exactly. Raphael. He is, he's quite adorable, really. So he's, this glasses wearing video game geek kind of guy. And Amanda refers to him as her Italian Harry Potter because he genuinely looks like a little Italian Harry Potter.

[00:24:51] Kyle Risi: He's got the floppy hair. He wears his stupid little scarf. He got, he's got his little round glasses on. I'll save round glasses. Yeah, so he's three years older than Amanda, but way, way less experienced in terms of the, the sex front. So landing someone like Amanda, this beautiful American woman, like, who genuinely seems interested in him, is like huge.

[00:25:10] Kyle Risi: Mm-hmm. Huge for Raphael. Amanda talks about how they would bond over their, kind of, their shared interests and the fact that they both could speak a little bit of German. Amanda has like, relatives in Germany and, and Raphael's kind of visited a few times. Now together they have this cute little game where they would like, make little faces at each other and basically their, their relationship gets very intimate, very quickly and super intense.

[00:25:35] Kyle Risi: Super vast, right? Like from day one, they're fallen for each other. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we've all been like that age, so we all know what that's like. Amanda describes Raphael as someone who kind of showed her. That kind of kindness that she was kind of used to back home, kind of making her feel comfortable, especially in a foreign country, right?

[00:25:52] Kyle Risi: Mm-hmm. So naturally she's gonna gravitate towards that, right? Because there's only been a few weeks since she arrived in Italy, so she's still trying to adjust, and because he gives her that kind of, that, that, that sense of familiarity that she gets from at home, she sees him very quickly as kind of like this comfort blanket, right?

[00:26:11] Kyle Risi: She wants to be near him, they have a lot in common, et cetera. What made me laugh is when asked about details of the relationship, later on, Amanda describes these quirky little rituals that they had. So for instance, when one of them is doing the dishes, like the other would rub the other one's back.

[00:26:27] Kyle Risi: Now bear in mind, they'd literally only been together for seven days. What at this point. So it's interesting that they describe it as like a ritual, already. A 

[00:26:35] Adam Cox: ritual. I'd be like, um, if you can rub my bag, you can pick up the tea towel and you can help me 

[00:26:40] Kyle Risi: clear up. Yeah. But it's kind of like, like when you are young and you fall in love for the first time, like days feel like months, don't they? Do you know what I mean? Yeah. I 

[00:26:50] Adam Cox: guess, yeah. If they're spending all their time together, yeah. They're just, yeah. 

[00:26:54] Kyle Risi: Well, nice. Yeah. Sweet. They are cute. So meanwhile, Amanda and Meredith, obviously they're still roommates. They're good friends but they're starting to kind of find their own social circles now.

[00:27:04] Kyle Risi: Meredith was spending a lot more time with her British friends and a guy called. Giacomo, he's the guy that lives downstairs. While Amanda was mostly hanging out with Raphael, um, the two were kind of like becoming like two passing ships in the night. They weren't drifting apart, but they weren't really seeing each other.

[00:27:22] Kyle Risi: And remember like with, this is how it's been reported, but this is a very short amount of time. It's been like a week. So this is how it's defined. I haven't seen her in a week. Oh. We've become like passing ships in the night. Yeah. And also, 

[00:27:33] Adam Cox: which is silly, and it's also like when you start university, you have, you form bonds with people that you immediately live with quite early on.

[00:27:41] Adam Cox: Yeah. Yeah. And then you do find new friendships and you do expand and sometimes you don't even hang out with the people. You, 

[00:27:47] Kyle Risi: this is exactly the thing that's happening. Like they're just finding their way, they're adjusting, they're falling into, kind of into place. Mm-hmm. So it's late October. Halloween is approaching and it's going to be one of the busiest nights for kind of the local bars in the area. Now the girls check in with each other about their plans, and Amanda is working that night. And then afterwards she plans to spend the night with Raphael. Surprise surprise, while Meredith, she's off to her favorite bar dresses of Vampire.

[00:28:14] Kyle Risi: And when you look at pictures of Meredith, like you'll see a lot of these. She looks a bit odd, but she, 'cause she's got fangs in there, she's trying to strike a pose. But if you don't realize that she's in fancy dress, you go, that's a weird pose that she's making. She's got fangs in her mouth. It's cute.

[00:28:27] Kyle Risi: So the next morning they catch up and recap their Halloween evening, and Raphael comes over for lunch. Meredith was doing a little bit of laundry and they both shared their plans for the rest of the day, which is now November the first. Mm-hmm. Now again, Meredith was going out with her British friends while Amanda was planning to stay in at Raphael's and maybe head to work if she was needed.

[00:28:48] Kyle Risi: 'cause she was on call that evening. They also mentioned that they had plans to go on a romantic weekend like the next day. And that was unfortunately the last conversation that they ever have. Oh, okay. 

[00:29:01] Kyle Risi: So I just wanna touch upon this real quick because the media really takes the following friction between the girls and really makes it into something that it really wasn't, which will be really becomes like a really important part of the story later on.

[00:29:15] Kyle Risi: Amanda and Meredith, were they the perfect roommates? The answer is no. Meredith Occasionally complained about Amanda's untidy. Um, but these were like far from major issues, you know what I mean? Like every, like, it's just normal stuff. 

[00:29:27] Adam Cox: So when you're at university, there's always, I mean, it's very rare that everyone you live with is gonna be like really clean and tidy.

[00:29:33] Adam Cox: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So if you are the tidy one, um, so it's either gonna be you or someone else that's gonna be the messy one or something like 

[00:29:39] Kyle Risi: that. Exactly. Yeah. That's it. There is this one time where they have a minor clash where Meredith has to remind Amanda to clean the toilet after every use. Now, I'm not saying that Amanda left a dirty mark in the toilet. What I'm saying here is that Meredith is like, no, no. After you go to the toilet every single time, just clean the toilet with a brush.

[00:29:57] Kyle Risi: Okay. Even if it's a we, which I think, okay, that's a bit extreme maybe, but I guess 

[00:30:00] Adam Cox: some people are different. Yeah. I wouldn't, it's a bit weird but not, 

[00:30:04] Kyle Risi: yeah. That weird. And I mean, at the end of the day after this altercation kind of Amanda's more like kind of embarrassed than upset.

[00:30:10] Kyle Risi: That's the only real minor clash that they have. And it's just two girls that are just adjusting, living with each other after, like living with their parents for their whole lives.

[00:30:19] Kyle Risi: Yeah. That's all it is. Exactly. Yeah.

[00:30:22] Kyle Risi: November the first, Meredith left me up with her friends. Meanwhile, Amanda and Raphael are chilling at his place. They're planning on watching Amélie and they're gonna, oh, I love Amélie. 

[00:30:33] Adam Cox: Fuck sake. That was 2000, no, that was 2005, I think, 

[00:30:35] Kyle Risi: Amélie. Oh, really? Yeah. Amanda is super excited because she cannot believe that Raphael has never seen Amélie, and it's because he's not a 12 year old girl. What it's for. Shut up. I hate 

[00:30:48] Adam Cox: that film. It's the best. It's my favorite film. You can just shut your 

[00:30:51] Kyle Risi: mouth. Oh, well you and Amanda are the same person, basically. So around 8:30 PM Amanda gets a text from her boss, Patrick, and he tells her that he doesn't need her at work this evening.

[00:31:01] Kyle Risi: So she's absolutely through it because it means that she can now spend the whole evening with Raphael. She replies to Patrick's text with the exact Italian translation for, see you later, have a good evening, which is a very, very common English phrase, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Now remember that, 'cause that's gonna come up later, right?

[00:31:22] Kyle Risi: They finish am Amélie around about nine 15, uh, and nine 30 they cook dinner, it's fish, and a simple salad. And that's when they notice that the sink's been leaking. Rafael is trying to mop it all up, but he's short of towels and Amanda says, just leave it. Um, I will bring my mop over tomorrow before we go away for our like dirty romantic weekend away.

[00:31:42] Kyle Risi: So after dinner they relax a bit, they smoke a joint, they eat some German Harry Potter to each other, and German Harry Potter. German Harry Potter. Yeah. 

[00:31:50] Adam Cox: Wow. I 

[00:31:51] Kyle Risi: wanna hear what that sounds like. Very escaped. Oh God. I'm terrible with accents, so I don't even wanna try. Would the 

[00:31:56] Adam Cox: spells be in German, like smelly armpits or whatever it is?

[00:31:59] Adam Cox: Oh, 

[00:31:59] Kyle Risi: I don't know. No. But yeah, I mean they, they both have this thing in common that they can speak a little bit of German and they both really love Harry Potter. I guess it was the thing. 'cause actually 2007, that was another big thing. Was it the Deathly Hallows got released? Was that when that was released?

[00:32:13] Kyle Risi: I think so. One of them I remember queuing up when that got released. Yeah. God, I'd love to read it all again from the very beginning without like knowing about the. Unread it. I wanna unread Harry Potter and then reread it. 

[00:32:25] Adam Cox: Why don't you just read it in German, then you can experience 

[00:32:28] Kyle Risi: it in a different way.

[00:32:29] Kyle Risi: No, I don't have time for that. German is such an angry language. Hi German listeners. It's just so angry. Anyway, so they open up about each other's painful past. They talk about how Raphael's mother passed away a few years earlier, and they share this kind of like deep, meaningful conversation, and then they just have sex and go to sleep.

[00:32:46] Kyle Risi: Okay? That's what, that's what life's like for them. So when they wake up on the second November, Amanda leaves Raphael's place in the early morning and she's going home to just have a shower, pack her bags for the weekend. When she arrives home, the flat door is open. Now she knows that the door has been acting up.

[00:33:03] Kyle Risi: So it's weird, but it's not that weird. Do you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Amanda goes to the bathroom to take a shower and she sees two drops of blood on the sink, and she thinks, oh, it might be from like my fresh ear piercing that I've recently had, but the blood's dry. So she maybe thinks that like maybe Meredith has nicked herself off shaving or something.

[00:33:21] Kyle Risi: Okay. So after she has a shower, she notices that there's a big, large rust colored spot on the bath mat. Her mind immediately jumps to, oh, Meredith must have had a period. Okay. So Amanda like dries off. She dresses, she packs, and then she decides that before she's gonna leave, she's just gonna quickly dry her hair in the large bathroom where she notices just the biggest shit in the entire world, just in the toilet.

[00:33:45] Kyle Risi: Oh. So 

[00:33:46] Adam Cox: gone to the poo. Gone for a poo, 

[00:33:48] Kyle Risi: but hadn't flushed it. Hadn't flushed it, but it's massive. So to her, that's weird. She's like given Meredith's kind of attention to cleanliness. Sure. She's thinking maybe the toilet was broken, maybe someone was drunk or high. But she's now starting to get the sense that something is off.

[00:34:02] Adam Cox: Or Yeah. Is that, and plus doesn't sound like Meredith would lead a giant poo. 

[00:34:06] Kyle Risi: Exactly. I think possibly that's going through her head as well. So she collects her things. She grabs a coat, she grabs a bag, she grabs a mop, and halfway to Raphael's house, she can't seem to shake the speed link of unease. And she decides that she's gonna call her mum, and her mum's like, yeah, it's weird, but don't lose your mind over it.

[00:34:23] Kyle Risi: Mm-hmm. So she tries Meredith's phone and there's no answer. Next, she calls her roommate Philomena, and she tells her about her morning. But Philomena is not as calm as Amanda. She's freaking out just a bit. She says, you need to know that Meredith was alone in the house that night. Laura was the other roommate, was away at a conference in Rome, and Philomena stayed at her boyfriend's house and she tells Amanda that you need to go back and you need to find out what's happened.

[00:34:50] Kyle Risi: So Amanda agrees, but she continues on her way to Raphael's house. When she arrives, she explains to Raphael what's happened. And they sit down and they have breakfast. Okay. So don't think that's a odd choice. 

[00:35:02] Adam Cox: I guess maybe they're like, this is weird, but maybe the, they're, I guess they're probably not thinking the worst of what's happened.

[00:35:08] Adam Cox: Yeah. So they're like, oh, she's probably weird. Let's just have some food and then we'll go deal 

[00:35:12] Kyle Risi: with it. Yeah. I guess, I guess it's because in that moment, she's not really facing a situation, right? Mm-hmm. So I think that's, maybe everything's kind of normal. It's maybe a bit off, but there's no major alarm bells that's going off, I guess.

[00:35:23] Kyle Risi: So, I guess, I guess you're right. I 

[00:35:25] Adam Cox: think that's how I would, unless, unless you're thinking the actual 

[00:35:27] Kyle Risi: words. Yeah. Well, no one does that. Do they, 

[00:35:29] Adam Cox: maybe you'd perhaps try and call Meredith a couple more 

[00:35:31] Kyle Risi: times, perhaps? Yeah. Yeah. So in the middle of breakfast, she gets another call from Philomena and she's like, what did you find?

[00:35:38] Kyle Risi: Like, did you go back? Uh, did you talk to Meredith? What's happening? And she tells her like, relax, like we're about to leave. And, but in this moment, like what Amanda doesn't realize is that she's making. A series of really poor choices that are gonna come and bite her in the butt. Okay. So Raphael and Amanda Head back to the house and as they enter, they start calling for Meredith.

[00:35:59] Kyle Risi: They knock on the door, but there's no answer. And her bedroom door is locked, which is unusual, but Amanda rationalizes it. She's like, um, saying like, sometimes Meredith like locks a door when she's changing because Amanda's too curious about the female body, you know? So bloody Amanda again, she's coming in looking at my naked body.

[00:36:20] Kyle Risi: They notice that er, Philomena's room is completely trashed, right? They see a rock on the floor, there's broken glass all over the bed and clothes are everywhere, but nothing seems to be taken, but it does look like a break-in. So she didn't spot this on her 

[00:36:31] Adam Cox: way 

[00:36:32] Kyle Risi: out? No, she didn't. I guess she didn't go into the room.

[00:36:35] Kyle Risi: Fair enough. Yeah. So Philomena calls again and Amanda updates her Philomena panics and says like, I'm coming home. Meanwhile, Amanda and Raphael are frantically trying to locate Meredith. They consider that maybe she's downstairs in the apartment with the boys, but they can't get inside. Amanda tries climbing up to see if she can see through a window, but she can't see anything.

[00:36:54] Kyle Risi: And at this point, Amanda calls her mom and tells her mom that about the break-in, and her mom's like, leave the house immediately and call the police. Mm-hmm. So they head outside and Raphael calls the cops. Now the police along with Philomena arrive shortly after. These officers are part of kind of what they call the postal police, so they're not your typical police officers, right?

[00:37:14] Kyle Risi: This means that they specialize in investigating like crimes related to communication technologies, right? Communication technologies. Yes. These officers inform the group that someone has reported finding two cell phones in the neighbor's garden. And the phones are registered to both Meredith and Philomena.

[00:37:34] Kyle Risi: Okay. Now it's clear that they were dumped there. Philomena had given Meredith the sim card for Meredith to use for local calls while Meredith kept her UK phone number for reaching kind of the uk. So technically they were both Merediths, but where was she? So the cops look around and they conclude that it looks like a break-in, and it's clear that the culprit has fled the scene and they assure everyone that everything's fine.

[00:37:56] Kyle Risi: But like Amanda is then like, um, Meredith's door is locked, and what about the fact that we just found her two cell phones in the garden next door? And the police are like, oh yeah, that changes things. And now everyone's a little 

[00:38:08] Adam Cox: bit freaked out and there's a giant poo in our toilet, which we can't account for.

[00:38:12] Adam Cox: Yeah, 

[00:38:12] Kyle Risi: exactly. Exactly. Apparently in some, like the poo's a bit weird to me because in some accounts, apparently Manda goes into the, the bathroom and it's flushed away, which means that whoever was in the house at the time when they returned. Mm-hmm. But then at the same time, they have photographs apparently of the turd.

[00:38:30] Kyle Risi: So I don't understand that. I'd like, I just mentioned it 'cause it was funny. It was just the biggest shit she's ever seen. Okay. 

[00:38:35] Adam Cox: The phantom poo, was it 

[00:38:36] Kyle Risi: there? Was it not? Yeah, exactly. So

[00:38:39] Kyle Risi: a cop asks Amanda if Meredith usually locks the door and Meredith says sometimes like when she's getting dressed and Philomena's like Meredith never locks her door. Alright. Philomena. Yeah. She's such a busy body and Philomena's like you need to break down the door. But the police are like, we can't, not without a warrant.

[00:38:55] Kyle Risi: So eventually Philomena's friends manage to break down the door. Okay. When Philomena and the police walk in there is blood everywhere. It's on the walls, it's on the floor, there's smears in the blood everywhere and they see a foot sticking out from under a large tan duvet and someone starts yelling.

[00:39:13] Kyle Risi: But Amanda. All she hears with her limited Italian is that there is a foot and she thinks that they found a dead body in the armoire. So, so contrary to what people say, Amanda doesn't actually see the crime scene at all. She doesn't see the bloody room. She doesn't see the person inside there.

[00:39:32] Kyle Risi: So where is she? She's just so, she's just on the other side of the door, right? Fine. She doesn't go in. Okay. So the scene is just complete chaos and she's like trying to make sense of it, right? Remember, she can't really speak Italian that well, and the police just order everyone out because now it's a crime scene, right?

[00:39:47] Kyle Risi: So they all go out on the front lawn for Philomena is sobbing. Everyone is crying. Calls have been made to Giacomo to tell him what's happened. And Amanda just stands there, like perplexed, like just, she's just clinging to Raphael. And despite the news breaking, like immediately, about the murder in Perugia to onlookers Amanda and Raphael, they seem really distant and they're just standing there occasionally, like cooing at each other and kissing each other. So it just kind of looks suss a little bit 

[00:40:16] Adam Cox: strange perhaps. Yeah. Are they behaving in this, it sounds like there's a, a bit of hysteria naturally mm-hmm.

[00:40:23] Adam Cox: With Philomena and maybe her friends and Amanda and her boyfriend are a bit on the outside and maybe not sharing that same sentiment. 

[00:40:33] Kyle Risi: Yeah. And I don't think it's necessarily indicative of their guilt, but I mean, these are some of the poor choices that I was talking about, right? Mm-hmm. Some of these weird things like not investigating the blood sooner, not going straight back to the house, going on to like kind of a breakfast with, um, Rafael and Yeah.

[00:40:49] Kyle Risi: Seem 

[00:40:49] Adam Cox: a bit lax and chilled about the whole thing, and that's it. 

[00:40:52] Kyle Risi: Okay. Yeah. So,

[00:40:54] Kyle Risi: so Meredith's father John, so he's a reporter right in the uk, and he sees the news and he notices like the site of his daughter's house in Perugia. Mm-hmm. And he gets a little concerned, so reaches out to some of his press contacts for more information. And that is how he hears that the victim's name is Meredith.

[00:41:12] Kyle Risi: Ugh, how awful is that? Wow. The autopsy reveals that Meredith had 16 bruises. She had seven cuts. There was a sign of a struggle and a sign that someone kind of was covering up her mouth and her nose. And also there was evidence of kind of sexual violence that had taken place. So she was raped and ultimately what killed her was a real, like a slash to the throat, right in, like right in there.

[00:41:36] Kyle Risi: Uh, so this murder ends up thrusting Perugia into the international spotlight, and in the midst of it all, there is Amanda and Raphael. And they are in this moment just engrossed in each other, right? Completely oblivious to the gravity that the situation kind of honing in on them, right? Do you know what I mean?

[00:41:54] Kyle Risi: Yeah. So in walks a guy called Juliano Manini. Now he's like the lead prosecutor in this entire shit show, and he fancies himself a bit of like a detective, even though he's not a detective, mm-hmm. He's a prosecutor. So he literally describes himself as Sherlock Holmes. Remember? Not a detective, he's a prosecutor, right?

[00:42:15] Kyle Risi: And he just happens to be on scene, so he says about himself that he's really good at finding a piecing together clues like Sherlock Holmes himself, he's also like a deeply devout Catholic as well, right? So he is really all about the morals. It just feel like some guy who's like clutching the pearls and like, oh my God, where's my smelling salt?

[00:42:30] Kyle Risi: So kinda like anything immoral or modern, I think you would hate it. So

[00:42:35] Kyle Risi: he's on the scene and he sees a Amanda and Raphael out on the lawn embracing and comforting each other. That's a good way of saying they're just comforting each other. Mm-hmm. 

[00:42:43] Adam Cox: Yeah. I guess as long as they're not like making out and stuff, but they're just hugging and Yeah, just holding each other. Just, 

[00:42:48] Kyle Risi: yeah, and Manini is like, Hmm, that's the devil.

[00:42:50] Kyle Risi: That's the devil right there. Oh wow. 

[00:42:52] Adam Cox: So he is already like this. Prosecutor's gone. That's it. I know 

[00:42:55] Kyle Risi: it. That's it. But also what strange language, right? Like why say, oh, that's the devil right there. That's just such an old fashiony kind of, that's just, that's just weird to me. Mm-hmm. Okay. So Amanda and Raphael, along with the rest of Meredith's friends and roommates are all taken to the police station where everyone makes like these emotional statements. Uh, they're crying, people are devastated.

[00:43:16] Kyle Risi: But Amanda, she's different, right? She switched into kind of like helper mode at this moment in time. Okay. So she's like, I'm gonna fix this. I'm gonna help the police find who did this. And she talks at length in her book about how she really, genuinely believed at this moment in time.

[00:43:32] Kyle Risi: That she was gonna be hugely invaluable mm-hmm. To, to the detectives. And this was literally the frame of mind that she was in. It's quite 

[00:43:41] Adam Cox: an odd, I don't know, that's quite an odd sort of, um, mentality. I mean, I, maybe that's how some people react, you know, that kind of flight or fight. And I guess she is Sure.

[00:43:49] Adam Cox: Fighting in a way. In a way. Yeah. Yeah. But that's why I don't think, oh, I'm gonna help 

[00:43:53] Kyle Risi: solve this. Well, the thing is, you need to remember that like, people deal with grief in different ways. Like, some people will panic. Mm-hmm. Some people will, um, well again, like she's just switched into helper mode.

[00:44:02] Kyle Risi: Many people were crying, they called their parents. But Amanda, she, at this moment in time, she was really calm. Mm-hmm. So I think maybe she's in shock. So eventually when she does call her mom, her mom is like, you should go stay with your aunt to Germany.

[00:44:15] Kyle Risi: Like, just get out of Italy. But she's like, no, I need to stay in Italy so that I can help the police. She just keeps emphasizing like, I'm an adult, I can handle this because this is what adults do. Okay. And one of the reasons for wanting to come to I Italy is 'cause she genuinely believed this was the year that she was gonna grow up.

[00:44:33] Kyle Risi: You know what I mean? So I kind of like, don't, I don't agree with it. I wouldn't have reacted like this, but I don't like not agree with it. I 

[00:44:38] Adam Cox: dunno if it's, yeah. I wouldn't say it was a sign of a guilty person. Mm-hmm. I don't think, but what does she say about, does she comment on um, you know, the, the embracing and holding whilst this is, you know, um, the detectives have started to look in the place.

[00:44:52] Adam Cox: Does she comment on how she was being or thought she was being be 

[00:44:55] Kyle Risi: portrayed? She, she kind of does. And I don't know if I necessarily buy it. And we'll come onto that in a minute when we get to the bit when she's been interrogated.

[00:45:01] Kyle Risi: 'cause it gets a bit worse. Like it really becomes a point of contention for the police. Like, like you realize that someone's died and you just feel like you're just being disrespectful. Mm-hmm. But we'll come onto that. So when Amanda asks police if she needs a lawyer, they say, no. No you don't. That makes you look guilty.

[00:45:17] Kyle Risi: Don't get a lawyer. So she just doesn't, she basically just trusts the police, she thinks that the police are good and that they're gonna help her get justice for her and her friend. Unfortunately, behind her back, things are just way more sinister. Mm-hmm. That prosecutor Manini, so he goes back to the crime scene and he notes how Meredith's body has been covered up by this duvet, and immediately he says the killer has to be a woman 'cause men don't cover up bodies.

[00:45:45] Kyle Risi: And I'm like, that is ridiculous. Like there are countless cases where men have covered up bodies, but he, but he says this like literally with a straight face. Even on the documentary, he believes it. But he's just so misguided. 

[00:45:56] Adam Cox: Stupid. That's a, yeah, I mean, I guess he's worked on maybe enough cases, and maybe it's not common, but 

[00:46:01] Kyle Risi: it's complete bullshit.

[00:46:02] Kyle Risi: I can literally name like a hundred cases. A hundred cases go fine.

[00:46:07] Kyle Risi: For example, John Wayne Gracie, right? So he was a serial killer and a sex offender known as obviously the Killer Clown. And he tortured, murdered 33 young kids, right? And he covered all of them. He hid them all in like crawlspaces and stuff like that. Okay. So there's one. The Ted Bundy case, right? Ted was one of the most notorious serial killers in American history, and he was known to of killed like 30 odd women during like the 1970s.

[00:46:29] Kyle Risi: And he would go to great lengths to Heidi's victims, right? Including burying them in remote areas, right? The Moores murders as well. All those kids were buried in. Fred West he buried them all in his, in his garden, right? So these are all examples 

[00:46:42] Kyle Risi: people aren't just killing people and just leave them out in, in the open, right? So it was just, I just didn't get it. It was stupid and I don't know why no one picked up on that before and just called, called him out on his bullshit. Okay? So 

[00:46:54] Adam Cox: that's Manin Malini's conspiracy 

[00:46:55] Kyle Risi: theory. That is it. So Manini cast his mind back to when he saw Amanda at the crime scene, right?

[00:47:01] Kyle Risi: She's not crying and she's been really affectionate with Raphael. So he makes up this wild connection and decides from this moment on that she's linked to the murder in some way. And that he was gonna prove it. He was gonna make it happen. So he repeatedly talks about Meredith as this kind of like classy woman full of morals.

[00:47:22] Kyle Risi: Even though the only thing that he knows about her at this moment in time is that she's dead. Okay. He knows nothing about her. So from that moment in his eyes, essentially, man, Amanda, she was the murderer. So over the next four days, Amanda and Raphael, they are interrogated endlessly. And at one point, Amanda is taken back to the apartment where she has shown the knife draw, not the top one, right?

[00:47:46] Kyle Risi: Like the second one down. Like the junk draw. The one with all the mismatched utensils, right? Yeah, yeah. And the police demand that she identify where the missing murder weapon is. And then Amanda is like, what? And then she's like, oh, I see what's happening. And she begins to understand that she's been literally implicated. As a suspect at this moment in time. 

[00:48:05] Adam Cox: Really? So why is that? Because they're saying where's, they're asking her where 

[00:48:10] Kyle Risi: is this particular knife? Where is it? Where is the knife? Yeah. So in that moment, she just like, starts to panic. She screams, she's pacing, she's hitting herself in the head, and she's, she's literally hitting herself in the head.

[00:48:21] Kyle Risi: Yeah. She's like banging her hands, like up here. Oh 

[00:48:24] Adam Cox: God. That's quite a, a 

[00:48:25] Kyle Risi: reaction. I think. She's just like, what's happening? Like, yeah. And of course, the prosecutor, manini, he's there for all of this, and he's like, you can hear Meredith screams in your head, can't you?

[00:48:35] Kyle Risi: It's all coming back to you. You're remembering what's happened now. And obviously that's not the case. Mm-hmm. So in that moment, Amanda is just like reacting to the realization that A, that her friend has just been murdered, and B, that she's now been implicated for that murder.

[00:48:49] Kyle Risi: Mm-hmm. So I get it. But, and this whole time she was like, Cooperating with the police thinking I'm gonna help them. I'm gonna be really cooperative. I haven't got a lawyer. I decided not to go away to Germany. So I guess she's like, there's also a lot of regret there. She's like, I've been such an idiot.

[00:49:02] Kyle Risi: Mm-hmm. Do you know what I mean? She has this belief that justice will prevail. And it's not, it's turning against her. So I get it. I get that reaction now. I dunno, I feel like 

[00:49:11] Adam Cox: That's really hard to put myself in that situation, I dunno if I'd react in that way, but I guess like you say, the grief might be coming to her at a different time. Yeah. 

[00:49:19] Kyle Risi: So maybe that's why, I mean, like I said, she does make a lot of poor decisions that do make her seem a bit suss. Yeah. I don't think it's indicative that she's guilty. Okay. But they are bizarre.

[00:49:30] Kyle Risi: Mm-hmm. And it's gonna get a little bit worse as well. But I mean, the media also, I. They take these actual truths and they make them into something that they're not necessarily reflective of real life. Mm-hmm. Do you know what I mean? So somehow at this point, Amanda is at the police station more than she isn't.

[00:49:48] Kyle Risi: And when she isn't at the police station, she's sleeping at Rafael's house, but she's got no access to her clothes. She's like, I don't want this to be real. I don't wanna buy new clothes, because this is all soon gonna be over, but I just, I just need to change my knickers. So, okay. And she also just happens to be on her period now as well, which, I'm not gonna pretend that I understand how all that works.

[00:50:09] Kyle Risi: 'cause I just don't, I don't come across people that have periods very often. What? Well, it's not like as a, what I think as a, as a straight man living with a woman, I think you probably come in contact with periods more than gay men. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. I, 

[00:50:25] Adam Cox: it's, 

[00:50:26] Kyle Risi: I mean, name the last 25 periods that you've come in contact with.

[00:50:29] Kyle Risi: I'm sure if we called up one of our straight friends, Nick and asked him, okay, list all the periods that you've come in contact with or had any experience with. Okay. He'd be like, yeah, um, July 27th and, uh, the month before that and, uh, the month before that. Okay. 

[00:50:42] Adam Cox: Okay. Yeah. Maybe, I 

[00:50:44] Kyle Risi: don't know, but she's not a period is my point.

[00:50:46] Kyle Risi: So Raphael says like, okay, I'll go buy you some underwear. So they go to the shop and it's not like Anne Summers or Victoria's Secret or anything like that. It's like h and m. And she picks out the first pack of breaths that she comes in contact with. Mm-hmm. And it's like got like a little cartoon on the front.

[00:51:01] Kyle Risi: Reporters immediately get footage of this and they're like, he bought her sexy underwear and they're just laughing the face of their murdered friend. And so yeah, it's just really random. And then the store clerk chimes in apparently in the aftermath and he's like, oh yeah.

[00:51:17] Kyle Risi: I think like when they were buying it, I overheard him say, yeah, I'm gonna take you home and have like dirty sex with you in this, in this underwear. 

[00:51:24] Adam Cox: So some SS store clerk chipping in to get his little moment of fame. 

[00:51:27] Kyle Risi: Exactly. He wants his 15 minutes of fame. He's clearly lying. So this just becomes huge international news.

[00:51:33] Kyle Risi: The press are subtly now starting to look deeper into Amanda, they have this great angle. Mm-hmm. And now they want more. So they get hold of a diary and they talk to her friends and they get hold of a MySpace page and there's all kinds of stuff on there that they really like.

[00:51:51] Kyle Risi: So MySpace, I forgot about that one. I know, right? That was another big thing. Yeah. They find pictures of her laughing while she's kind of shooting a machine gun. So that's not gonna look good. Yeah. Is it? It looks crazy. A crazy like mad woman like shooting a machine gun.

[00:52:05] Kyle Risi: They find pictures that her sister took for her photography class where Amanda is suggestively posing near a piano or on a piano. I haven't seen the photograph. Oh, then she must be a murderer. She's a fix. And the best bit is that they discover that her name on MySpace is Foxy Noxy. And that's all they need.

[00:52:24] Kyle Risi: Yeah. Literally. So Amanda becomes this fem fatel. And they have proof because why else would you call yourself Foxy Knox if you weren't a murderous whore? Okay. But actually, Foxy Knox is a nickname that she gets in middle school. When she plays like soccer, she's like really quick.

[00:52:38] Kyle Risi: Like Fox. So they call her Foxy Oxy. Oh, okay. But they've turned into this kind of like this fem fatel kind of like, and sexualize 

[00:52:44] Adam Cox: this whole thing. Yeah. She's been bought underwear. She's just, 

[00:52:47] Kyle Risi: and this is all the British press, Adam. Oh, it's crazy. They're on the ground. They're getting blow by, blow by blow.

[00:52:52] Kyle Risi: And the extent that they go to to get their stories is just sickening. Like they get her diary. How do they get 

[00:52:58] Adam Cox: that? God knows. There must be like, do they fly over and like someone from Daily Mail steal in? Yes. Pretends to be a prosecutor. 

[00:53:05] Kyle Risi: Yeah. Or whatever. In a scene that would come to, in a minute they even get into the police station.

[00:53:09] Kyle Risi: Really? Yeah. And they have a chat with her? It's crazy.

[00:53:12] Kyle Risi: They also talk about how all the men that she slept with in Perugia, I think it's like four men. 

[00:53:18] Adam Cox: I remember actually this in the news stories afterwards with her being like some sort of weird sex crazed woman. 

[00:53:25] Kyle Risi: Yes. Oh, Adam. It gets so much worse.

[00:53:27] Kyle Risi: Okay. Like, yeah, they really, they really like kind of hook into that kind of sex craze, orgy loving kind of, I don't know, sex obsessed, fem fatal woman. Yeah. So like she slept with life Four men I think in her entire life is like seven people. Which it's not that big of a deal. I guess to someone like Manini Iss huge, right?

[00:53:46] Kyle Risi: Because he is like this devout Catholic, but yeah. But seven people is nothing. It certainly doesn't make you a murderer anyway. Even if she has like slept with even more people than that. I know people with my mom's got a bigger body count than some people I know, and she's not a murderer. I hope she's not ing.

[00:54:02] Kyle Risi: All this is happening, it's like four days later after the murder and they're going back and forth being questioned. In between interviews, she's just chilling in the corridor. When she starts talking to, I think it's a reporter, she obviously doesn't know.

[00:54:15] Kyle Risi: And he says, I hear you like yoga. And he's like, can you show me some? And she gets up and she starts doing splits and she starts doing a cartwheel. And of course at that exact moment, the inter interrogator. Yeah. A female interrogator, she comes out of the elevator and she sees what's going on and she's like, you crazy woman.

[00:54:34] Kyle Risi: Like, get over here. Like this is so inappropriate. Stop doing this. Like, so this doesn't look good. Yeah, basically. And then Raphael has finished with his interview and before she's due to go back in, the two are just standing outside the room, cuddling and kissing. And again, the interrogators are like, What's wrong with you?

[00:54:50] Kyle Risi: Like someone has died. Mm-hmm. Yet you're standing there making out. Yeah. 

[00:54:55] Adam Cox: That is a bit weird. This doesn't, sounds like someone's a bit, 

[00:54:59] Kyle Risi: I don't know. Amanda does explain in her book that she says this behavior was like really comforting to her.

[00:55:06] Kyle Risi: Because it made her feel less scared in the moment. Like she had this opportunity to kind of like be comforted and cuddle with her boyfriend. Mm-hmm. So it helped take her mind off the situation. Um, I mean, I don't really fully get it. I don't know if maybe I've misinterpreted what she was saying in the book, but I don't really get it.

[00:55:22] Kyle Risi: I guess that people are all different, but of course the investigators like, they look at this and they just think, oh, that she's ready to go home and have sex and that's not good. I guess 

[00:55:35] Adam Cox: maybe it's different cultures and stuff, but maybe, I dunno, I guess I would've thought. I feel maybe being British you have a bit more like, oh, you know, you can comfort, you can hug, but you wouldn't put on any 

[00:55:47] Kyle Risi: serious affection.

[00:55:49] Kyle Risi: Yeah, the optics, the optics are not good. Mm-hmm. There's another incident where she is in the station and she's really freaking out. So Raphael gets her to sit on the lap and he's like bouncing her like a, like a toddler.

[00:55:59] Kyle Risi: And I mean, this doesn't look good. So when she's been interrogated again, the police tell her we've had a breakthrough in your case. And she's like, great. Like you must have figured out who did it? Tell me like what's happened.

[00:56:12] Kyle Risi: And they tell her Raphael has broken, and apparently he has told police that around about 1:00 AM on the morning of Meredith's murder. That Amanda had left the house for about an hour before then coming back. Does this, I mean, I'm 

[00:56:26] Adam Cox: guessing they are completely lying. 

[00:56:28] Kyle Risi: Are they allowed to do that? Well, basically what's going on the other side of that door is that the police are telling Raphael that Amanda is untrustworthy.

[00:56:36] Kyle Risi: They tell her that she regularly engages in suspicious activities and all of this. Adam is coupled with the fact that he hasn't slept, he hasn't eaten, and he's under like immense pressure. Mm-hmm. So apparently he tells police that Amanda left the house that night and they keep pushing him like with questions of like, when did she leave?

[00:56:56] Kyle Risi: Like what happened? Like where did she go? Why did she go? Like, so it must have just been absolutely awful for him and it has been proven, you know, that this kind of pressure can distort like your reality and, and, and has proven to like lead people to admitting to things that they just didn't do. And that's what's happened in this case.

[00:57:13] Kyle Risi: I thought, I 

[00:57:14] Adam Cox: find that quite weird, that he would've actually said, oh, yay, 

[00:57:16] Kyle Risi: she left. Well, same thing happens to Amanda.

[00:57:19] Kyle Risi: So they relay this information to Amanda, and she's devastated, right? She can't understand why Raphael would lie. And again, the interrogators keep pushing her now. Like they're asking her, why did you leave? Like, like, where did you go? It's just relentless. And again, at this point, she is also exhausted.

[00:57:36] Kyle Risi: She's hungry, and they just keep going at her. And they're saying that we know that you went to go see Patrick that evening because Raphael told us that you did. And they have a text to prove it as well. They've now, oh, the one was exactly, they've now forced Raphael to like warrant or like corroborate the text and acknowledge it and then they've like, they've made this fit basically.

[00:58:00] Kyle Risi: Yeah. So the text reads, as you remember, I'm going to see you later have a good night. Which in Italian means I'm going to see you. I think like imminently. Okay. So, and Amanda is like, that's not what I meant though. Like she's trying to explain to them that she uses the phrase in the context of like an American colloquialism, right?

[00:58:20] Kyle Risi: Yeah. Which apparently doesn't translate into Italian. So Amanda is like freaking out and she's like, apparently, she's like, I dunno what the fuck's going on. And another officer in the room with like really limited English, she's like, I know. Fuck you. I know what that means. Fuck you back. And then he writes down that she's really violent.

[00:58:35] Kyle Risi: So it is not looking good. And as they continue to press her, they manage to implant a memory in her. And they, how'd they do that? Are they, well, this is it. Like, um, there's these techniques out that are out there that they use. Like they're completely bad now. And, but up in Italy at this point, they were still legal.

[00:58:52] Kyle Risi: So she begins to visualize Patrick in a brown jacket at the basketball court near kind of the house. And she recalls hearing Meredith screaming. And they take this as a confession and she signs it. What? Hang on. So 

[00:59:08] Adam Cox: So she says, uh, that she had seen Patrick that night. Mm-hmm. In the brown jacket.

[00:59:15] Adam Cox: Yep. And she remembers hearing Meredith screaming. 

[00:59:19] Kyle Risi: Well, imagine it right? You are with your boyfriend all night. He says, well, She left around about one 1:00 AM and she's like, I didn't leave at 1:00 AM. And he is like, but he says that you did leave at 1:00 AM you've gone for about an hour. And she's like, maybe I did leave.

[00:59:30] Kyle Risi: Maybe I did see, maybe I did see him. And she's tired. She hasn't eaten. And she's like, she's just exhausted. And all these things are happening. Like this is just a flyby of what's happened, but it's really intense. So, and this happens all the time. There's loads of documented cases of these things happening, like these memories being implanted into people, uh, people being coerced into kind of admitting things that they didn't mean to say.

[00:59:52] Kyle Risi: And is this kind of They hit her as well? They hit her. Yeah. She gets like a couple years added onto her sentence because she said that the investigator hit her. But they did, they slapped her across her head.

[01:00:02] Kyle Risi: Yeah. 

[01:00:02] Adam Cox: So are they under, I mean, I imagine there's been other cases, I think this has happened with maybe Madeline McCann. Mm-hmm. I don't know where they're like forced to basically try and get an answer and a result 

[01:00:15] Kyle Risi: quickly. Yeah. This is it. These systems aren't really that sophisticated. Mm-hmm.

[01:00:20] Kyle Risi: So afterwards they allow her to rest for an hour or two, they push two chairs together and when she wakes up, immediately she realizes what's happened, which is that she's being coerced into implicating her boss Patrick in Meredith's murder.

[01:00:36] Kyle Risi: So, she's angry, she's confused, and she's waiting in this kind of this waiting room. And Philomena and a bunch of the others are there now. And one of them says, I hope Meredith like didn't suffer. And Amanda's like, of course she suffered, someone slit her throat.

[01:00:49] Kyle Risi: Okay. And so when the news breaks that she has confessed this apparent lack of sensitivity and brashness it's just more incriminating against her. I see. Yeah. So I dunno where they're getting all this information from, but it's mental. The press are loving it.

[01:01:03] Kyle Risi: So while all this is going on, her phone is constantly ringing. Her mother has just arrived in Perugia and she cannot find Amanda. And of course Amanda can see her phone like a foot away. She just isn't allowed to answer it. And the police are just trying to get as much information as possible before like her mother intervenes and finally says the sensible thing and says, stop talking.

[01:01:25] Kyle Risi: You need 

[01:01:26] Adam Cox: a lawyer. That's what I was about to say. She hasn't got a lawyer at this point, has she? 

[01:01:29] Kyle Risi: No lawyer. But they get everything they need and immediately, immediately they go public with it all, which is just so stupid. Wow. So Amanda gets arrested and obviously, um, they take her to prison, but before she gets taken away, she has to talk to Manini, the prosecutor.

[01:01:46] Kyle Risi: That's his actual job. Mm-hmm. And he says, all right, you need to talk me through what happened so we can get the official confession. And Amanda's like, no, I can't do that. What a, I've said things that aren't right. And he insists you wouldn't have confessed if you hadn't done it, so you did it.

[01:02:03] Kyle Risi: And he keeps just repeating the same question. Why did you name Patrick? Why would you say it if he didn't do it or if you didn't see him? 

[01:02:10] Adam Cox: So is she saying that Patrick is the one that killed Meredith and 

[01:02:14] Kyle Risi: she was implicated? She's not saying that anymore.

[01:02:17] Kyle Risi: She said that in the interrogation room because she was told that Rafael said that she left the house.

[01:02:22] Adam Cox: So, but why Patrick? Do they think it's him? Why are they abusing him? 

[01:02:27] Kyle Risi: I dunno. Okay. Dunno, because we're gonna find out in the next episode What? 'cause I think that's where we're gonna leave it today. What? This is it. This is a two-parter. We're not wrapping it.

[01:02:39] Kyle Risi: What? No. So next week we are gonna be covering Amanda Knox's trial. I'm gonna tow the details of the actual crime. And a bit about her time in prison. 'cause at this point, this chick, she's headed for jail. So what are your thoughts? 

[01:02:55] Adam Cox: I don't agree to two parters, but yeah, I am, well, I'm, I'm learning way more than I realized the kind of nuances of this case. I think I only just had like the, the top level kind of what the media portrayed. That's it. I didn't know this level that underneath it. So yeah. I'm, yeah. I'm interested to see the next one now. 

[01:03:14] Kyle Risi: Great. So should we wrap up?

[01:03:17] Kyle Risi: Yeah, let's do it. That brings us to an end of another episode of the Compendium and Assembly of fascinating and intriguing things. If you've enjoyed today's episode, then you can show us some love by leaving us a, that cheeky five star review on Apple or Spotify. Every little review helps. Remember, we are also on Instagram at the Compendium podcast, remember, we now have a new home on the web, which is, what is it? Adam the compendium podcast.com. So all you compendium lovers, uh, check it out.

[01:03:44] Kyle Risi: So I guess until next week, we'd leave you on, on a cliffhanger. Come. You don't have to wait a whole week. Oh, well we'll be recording this straight after this anyway. Oh, okay. 

[01:03:54] Kyle Risi: So see ya. 

[01:03:56] Kyle Risi: See ya.